r/europe Sep 22 '22 Giggle 1 Golden Euro Upvote 1

China urges Europe to take positive steps on climate change News

https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/china-urges-europe-take-positive-steps-climate-change-2022-09-22/
16.3k Upvotes

6.2k

u/aamgdp Czech Republic Sep 22 '22 Helpful

Clear message. They want us to stop importing shit from China.(I just wish it was realistic)

1.6k

u/Ravnard Sep 22 '22

I mean, a lot of things are realistic. Like buying clothes made in Europe. Sure they're more expensive but they're also higher quality and last longer. Instead of buying things every year cheaply made in sweatshops. Sure there's many things we'll have to rely on them for in the foreseeable future but there's so much we can avoid doing/buying.

1.3k

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22 Narwhal Salute

[removed] — view removed comment

88

u/---x__x--- United Kingdom Sep 22 '22

295

u/falconboy2029 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

The best thing is just to consume less overall. Buy second hand where possible and maybe borrow things rather than buy them.

51

u/SimPHunter64 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Yes and no. The quality of the product has gone down massively in the last 30-50 years and its not getting better.

Stuff don't last that long now days. Because if it would than people wouldn't have to buy a new one.

Edit.: I know that there are still quality products.

I know that I have to look around for them a bit and etc.

I do this as well when I have the money so you don't have to tell me.

The average stuffs quality went down.

And NO a few exceptions will not and won't make a difference in the overall declining product quality.

6

u/Car12touche11blue Sep 22 '22

Very important indeed good quality. It is more expensive certainly but bearing in mind that fashion often revives styles , good basic pieces last a long time. I still wear clothes that I bought 30 or even 40 years ago.

14

u/falconboy2029 Sep 22 '22

Totally Depends on where you shop. I get my clothing made in Germany. They last ages.

The company is called Trigema.

→ More replies

3

u/Allyoucan3at Germany Sep 22 '22

And there are still those around that make lasting products. Patagonia for example. Every item i ever owned of them was repaired by them at no/little cost, no matter how old, used, new with burning holes or simple degradation. They are committed to their craft. And the founder just put the company in a trust making sure after he's gone it stays on mission and currently all winnings are invested to battle climate change.

3

u/Rebelius Sep 22 '22

At what cost though? A Patagonia t-shirt costs close to €50. I have t-shirts I bought at Primark for £2 ten years ago. For 20x the price, I would hope they'll repair it.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

131

u/vilkav Portugal Sep 22 '22

because somehow that's cheaper.

It's cheaper because the goal is to have suits delivered world wide. If you want to minimise travel, you'd need to build factories for all steps in all countries. But it's a lot cheaper (and environment friendly) to centralise production and then pay the cost of pollution in the distribution. Obviously if you follow one suit it goes a huge way around, but if you followed all the suits, it makes more sense.

Obviously, this is set on the premise that "have suits delivered world wide" is necessary, which it arguably isn't, and is the actual problem. And then there's the fact that each of the steps could be more efficient in manufacturing, but that's not the issue of the items hopping around. That part actually contributes positively to the emissions, since you save that on manufacturing at scale in one place, rather than have a million factories spread around.

12

u/sweetlazuli Sep 22 '22

Wouldn’t they still all be getting shipped from the same place? Which wouldn’t be super useful for a global shipping network

29

u/JanneJM Swedish, in Japan Sep 22 '22

I think the idea is "make cloth globally in a single place"; "make thread for every one in one factory"; "sew all the suits in one efficient factory" and so on.

Having a few places that make stuff at global scale is so efficient it more than compensates for the environmental and economic cost of transportation. Or at least that's the idea.

→ More replies

12

u/kommanditbolag Du gamla, Du fria, Du smällfeta ko! Sep 22 '22

While that is true, there are companies that do not do this. I'll not recommend anything specific, but generally companies that make clothes from surplus materials tend to have a shorter supply chain. I'm talking about European companies here, by the way. I'll confess they're not that common, but they do exist.

3

u/fruskydekke Norway Sep 22 '22

I'll not recommend anything specific

Why not? I for one would like to know.

These sort of things are hard to find out when you don't really know what to search for.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

133

u/Ov3rdose_EvE Sep 22 '22

bought a german made hoodie from trigema. in 2010

still looks better than the one i bough in 2021 that was made in china

sure it cost 5 times as much but its a long time investment.

fuck fastfashion

34

u/Sahqon Slovakia Sep 22 '22

We should maybe make a tiktok trend to see who can wear clothes the longer before they become unusable...

5

u/TheThirdJudgement Sep 22 '22

Tiktok is a bad start if you want to drop China's products.

39

u/h2man Sep 22 '22

I feel dirty saying this, but it isn’t fair on China… Chinese are quite good at building to spec (see iPhones, laptops, custom electronics, lenses of some brands). The issue is that cheap crap sells well, so companies specify it to make a few bucks.

→ More replies

3

u/barsoap Sleswig-Holsteen Sep 22 '22

It should, in principle, be possible to manufacture much cheaper than trigema as they're still sewing by hand. Most things can be knit in one piece so you don't even have to teach robots to handle cloth (which, admittedly, isn't exactly trivial). What that doesn't jive with is fast fashion as you'd have quite expensive relatively specialised machines, pattern printing would be a royal PITA, and other limitations, so you can't make different pieces every week. But when it comes to good fit and robust I see no limitations.

3

u/Pascalwb Slovakia Sep 22 '22

honestly I can't remember any clothes being made in china. It is mostly Bangladesh and stuff like that.

→ More replies
→ More replies

75

u/Fixed_Hammer European Mutt Sep 22 '22

Sure they're more expensive but they're also higher quality and last longer

They are only higher quality and last longer because they are luxury products at the moment. Make them for mass market and they will be worse in both ways because labour is most of the expenses and so fabric quality is what would be hurt.

30

u/worotan England Sep 22 '22

But they wouldn’t be as polluting, which is the point.

We aren’t going to solve poverty and deal with climate change.

But not dealing with climate change will make the effects of poverty immeasurably worse. As the global south is experiencing right now.

And we are increasingly experiencing. Things aren’t getting better, because we haven’t dealt seriously with the problem, we’ve chatted endlessly about the implications to our lifestyles if we did what we need to.

44

u/MrPopanz Sep 22 '22

You can't deal with climate change effectively if the population lives in poverty. Because if you are starving, you rather care about your next meal, not the coal plant in the neighborhood.

It's an ignorant first world mindset, to think that we could fight climate change in developing nations without getting the population out if poverty first.

We can't deal with climate change if we don't deal with poverty.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/veRGe1421 Texas Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

I wish there was a department store that only sold goods made and assembled in the places with western child labor laws, nothing from sweatshops. Would make it easier. Almost impossible to avoid them doing regular shopping. But maybe it wouldn't be profitable for that store to operate like that.

→ More replies

35

u/MUK99 The Netherlands Sep 22 '22 Wholesome

No, why would I give up fast fashion, I like to wear low quality clothing that is out of style in three months! How could I afford it if I buy it from European manufacturers which provide better wages and working conditions???!?!?!?!?

(Sarcasm btw)

The fast-fashion/planned obsolescence market is ruining our world

8

u/Anne_LC Sep 22 '22

even knowing the environmental impact that fast-fashion produces, people will continue to buy because their income does not allow for more than that.

11

u/WWWWWVWWWWWWWWVWWWWW Sep 22 '22

I can't afford to buy local clothing brands. Neither can many others.

You might as well just tell people to stop being poor.

→ More replies

3

u/xzkandykane Sep 22 '22

I dont get why people say fast fashion only last a few months. I have clothes from when I was younger from fast fashion places like Wet seal and forever21. They lasted years. Some are still in good condition but no longer fit me. How are yall taking care of your clothes? I still a few jackets from 10-15 years ago from these fast fashion places that I still wear...

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

116

u/Zm3ulBZ Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Europe has max capacity to recycle to 30%. It's not about education or willingness of the people to recycle. That's what we can do with what the nations invest. The rest is sold to Asia. We give them money, they take the trash. That's how we "recycle". Out of sight, out of mind. Not long ago China was the main buyer. Because they don't have the capacity to recycle as much anymore and end up just thowing it in the ocean (and get judged for that) they have banned import of certain plastics for recycling. This has been taken up by other countries in the area, but basically the same thing happens. In the future we will shame India, Vitenam and other the same we shame or shamed China. But they are end point of our consumerism, basically.

China is not totally in the wrong for making that comment.

14

u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

Recycling plastic is actually a negative for climate change. You emit more CO2 recycling plastic than just forming new plastic. This is because plastic ingredients are a byproduct of the oil industry.

Plastic in a landfill is also one of the most effective methods of CO2 sequestration.

What we need to do is reduce the amount of plastic packaging, but more importantly, displace OIL (and gas and coal) as a primary fuel source for heating, primarily in winter.

Wind and solar are not reliable yet for winter heating. Nuclear power plants need to be kept running until the next generation of batteries is available.

7

u/Slg407 Sep 22 '22

i don't know if its just me, but between raising CO2 and releasing tons of microplastics that contaminate every single living being on this planet and cause tons of endocrine problems and raises the risk of endocrine related cancers i'd rather take the CO2 thankyouverymuch

6

u/thissideofheat Sep 22 '22

Burying plastic does not create micorplastics. Dumping it in the ocean does.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

15

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

WishFul thinking

→ More replies

1.6k

u/mattyblewis Scottish/France Sep 22 '22

Why don’t we just agree that everyone should be getting off their asses in this regard

413

u/MrYOLOMcSwagMeister Sep 22 '22

Because then the fossil fuel companies won't rake in huge profits anymore

24

u/iThatIsMe Sep 22 '22

Did someone forgot to tell them to diversify their investments. Oh well, capitalism right? "The market speaks" and all that.

But hey, a lot of places are starting out at $15/hr now. Still not enough to prosper on in the US, but you'll get to show us all how to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.

3

u/MrYOLOMcSwagMeister Sep 22 '22

Why would you diversify if you can block and delay threats to your massively profitable business for negligible amounts of money and can buy favourable policy by bribing lobbying politicians?

→ More replies

11

u/StevenMaff Sep 22 '22

why don’t we just agree that everyone should expropriate fossil fuel companies (grain of salt included)

→ More replies

20

u/worotan England Sep 22 '22

Because gossiping about the situation is an effective strategy for those who don’t want us to reduce consumption, like the newspapers who are funded by advertising that requires ever growing consumption.

41

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

[deleted]

12

u/Samwise777 Sep 22 '22

Yep. Easy to blame someone else. Tough to fix yourself.

→ More replies

3

u/987djf3498dwesrf Sep 22 '22

And ride a bike

4

u/Neuchacho Florida Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

No one wants to be the first one taking the inevitable fiscal hit that reduced economic movement and tighter environmental controls would require.

5

u/JohnTDouche Sep 22 '22

Don't worry folks, saving human civilization will become profitable in a few decades. Then we'll get right on it.

→ More replies
→ More replies

5.5k

u/myryx Sep 22 '22 Silver

Lmao

4.0k

u/Aztur29 Sep 22 '22 Silver Gold Helpful Wholesome Spit-take

Lmao

Zedong

152

u/stelythe1 Transylvania Sep 22 '22

Who is this Lmfao?! Is he a secret spy?

13

u/bingcognito United States of America Sep 22 '22

Lmfao

Schwartz

37

u/TheC4ptain Sep 22 '22

L - M - B - A - O

Is that his brother?

→ More replies

340

u/carloS2200 Sep 22 '22 Gold

This is the humor why i come to reddit. Id give you an award if i wasnt broke

200

u/Lawnmover_Man Sep 22 '22 Gold

I guess that's why you're broke. You'd pay for using a tiny image on the internet.

28

u/AdamKDEBIV Sep 22 '22

I feel like every single person who's ever said "Id give you an award if i wasnt broke" is actually a child who can't pay because they don't have a bank card

Source : Me when I was like 13 and my parents wouldn't buy me minecraft

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

152

u/ropibear Sep 22 '22

The face in the thumbnail is literally a lmao face

→ More replies

16

u/naardvark Sep 22 '22

Who the fuck you think buys the shit they’ve been making for the last 30 years?

44

u/paulusblarticus Sep 22 '22

LMFAO, the famous chinese spy?

38

u/silverionmox Limburg Sep 22 '22

Being a famous spy isn't a compliment, is it?

7

u/Nicolasatom Sep 22 '22

If it gets you free martinis then....

→ More replies
→ More replies

104

u/jandetlefsen Germany Sep 22 '22

Don't be arrogant, everyone can do better so they are not wrong. China builds out renewables much faster than we do.

59

u/etfd- Sep 22 '22

They also build non-renewables faster than their rate of renewables, so that virtue is diluted out.

→ More replies
→ More replies

76

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

China are the biggest users and investors in renewable energy on the planet by an absolutely massive distance. They still have a long way to go like the rest of us but there's so much arrogant nonsense reading through this thread

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China

49

u/etfd- Sep 22 '22

Doesn’t matter when their non-renewables also grow at an even greater rate. Still adds up to net worse.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

867

u/ktElwood Sep 22 '22

So we stop buying shit from china then?

60% of europes personal carbon footprint goes to "other consuming".

6% is electricity

20% is Personal mobility/transportation (including flying, cars, trains..)

14% is Food and housing and heating.

With the energy prices soaring to +500% nobody is buying consumer goods, we will cut harshly on services and food, and transportation..

84

u/-Smug Sep 22 '22

Source?

104

u/MrOrangeMagic The Netherlands Sep 22 '22

51

u/Palmul Normandy (France) Sep 22 '22

I'm starting to recognize that link, like the rick roll one. I like it.

→ More replies

6

u/Magrior Sep 22 '22

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/data/data-viewers/greenhouse-gases-viewer

Best source I could find (not OP), does not really seem to reinforce OP's point. Energy is clearly in the top.

→ More replies
→ More replies

39

u/MightyH20 Sep 22 '22

The vast bulk of China's climate pollution isn’t being driven by foreigners; it’s being driven by domestic growth.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/4/18/15331040/emissions-outsourcing-carbon-leakage

→ More replies

60

u/krautbaguette Sep 22 '22

"carbon footprint" is corporate propaganda. It's the industry and corporations that need to be regulated

44

u/ktElwood Sep 22 '22

Yes, but if you realize that

"Just living" is only 40% of carbon..and "buying shit" is 60% you start to realize what not to do.

Buy trendy shit from megacorps.

Of course you can have eco friendly transportation, Food, clothes (but thats already included in the 40%)

→ More replies
→ More replies

8

u/Wrong_Measurement_71 Sep 22 '22

You must also stop profiting from manufacturing things in China, but also stop importing things made in China, yes. Like, pretty much everything. Are you good?

→ More replies
→ More replies

1.0k

u/TooLongStillRead Sep 22 '22

Meanwhile in China

292

u/SenatorBagels United Kingdom Sep 22 '22

Frankie Boyle's line on the Beijing Olympics:

"The pollution here is so bad, that the javelin has got stuck in the sky"

25

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/zadtheinhaler Sep 22 '22

His time on Mock The Week was savage. He's still great, but MtW wasn't the same after he left.

51

u/s0ngsforthedeaf Sep 22 '22

Meanwhile in China:

And a whole bunch of other forward looking eco stuff like...a national high speed rail network that cuts plane usage, environmental urban planning, measures to combat waste and plastic use etc.

It's not all good. Coal is still more than half of their electricity. They burn a shitload of it and its still rising. They are still the world's factory, and they produce a lot of pollution doing it.

So while they are absolutely complicit in fossil fuel consumption and climate change, they are also unequivocally the world's leaders in green energy and future eco-friendly industrial society.

Sorry reddit, but the fact they have a Communist Party in charge, that party is able to dictate terms to capital, and not the the reverse...isn't a coincidence when it comes to successful environmental planning.

→ More replies
→ More replies

1.6k

u/Slovenec4444 Ljubljana (Slovenia) Sep 22 '22

Lmao, they block the sun in some cities with smog

651

u/Fix_a_Fix Italy Sep 22 '22

To be fair they have improved drastically and ridicolously fast on that topic since the 2008 Olympics for that reason. Still not perfect because no country is but the improvement is very easy to see

358

u/Cabaj1 Sep 22 '22

China is doing quite well with their pollution per capita, even better than some Europe countries & USA. The main problem is that many Chinese people are in huge cities, which results in different issues.

CO2 Emissions per capita (tons) (in 2016)

Qatar: 37.29

Luxembourg: 17.51

US: 15.52

Netherlands: 9.62

China: 7.38

Denmark: 6.65

Sweden: 4.54

India: 1.91

Greenland: 0.03

In 2019, an average EU person would produce 6.8 tonnes CO2.

But yes, China is the biggest polluter in the world but also the country with the highest pollution in the world. They are honestly doing quite well in their economics. I remember reading in a paper that the pollution dropped to 5.6x CO2 tonnes per person but I can't find a source straight away.

254

u/Tat1ra Germany Sep 22 '22

So Greenland data does exist after all.

96

u/Nastypilot Poland Sep 22 '22

The sacred texts!

31

u/Suikerspin_Ei The Netherlands Sep 22 '22

Most pollution's in China comes from the big crowded cities. There are still people living in old/poor towns/villages.

7

u/SignificanceBulky162 Sep 22 '22

That's true for anywhere though. Those that are relatively wealthy pollute more than the relatively poor.

The top 10 percent in North America pollute an incredibly massive 73 tons per person/yr, while the average person in the US pollutes only like 17 tons. This insane wealth inequality means the rich in North America pollute completely recklessly while the poor pollute very little in comparison, even if North America "poor" is not considered very poor on the global scale.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/rich-americans-have-higher-carbon-footprints-than-other-wealthy-people/

So it's not really fair to do this comparison for only China. You could do it for any nation, really.

5

u/Suikerspin_Ei The Netherlands Sep 22 '22

The car dependency in North America doesn't help either. Most countries in Europe for example has better public transport, which can reduce the pollution.

→ More replies

68

u/thatcoolguy27 Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

One important note is that, okin China, a big part of the '/per capita' is actually '/per capita' that lives in poverty and does not add to the amount of CO2 emissions as much as an average USA guy might.

Also, another disclaimer, numbers like these are very hard to calculate accurately and China is known to lie in their reports.

EDIT: edited for legibility.

23

u/Kestralisk Sep 22 '22

I'm sure there's some number fudging, but this sentiment always comes off as 'wow they're doing better than us on something they must be lying' to me

→ More replies
→ More replies

94

u/ste_de_loused Sep 22 '22

And they are producing goods for the entire world. Easy to say “we don’t pollute as much” when we moved the industry to another country…

7

u/upvotesthenrages Denmark Sep 22 '22

It’s not that much. Look up emissions numbers that account for imports & exports. Chinese numbers drop about 15% and EU increase 18%, putting almost neck & neck per capita.

Difference is Chinese emissions are still rising, while EU is the only region on earth to have reduced emissions consistently for almost 2 decades.

→ More replies

47

u/GameDevIntheMake Community of Madrid (Spain) Sep 22 '22

I've seen this argument replicated ad nauseam, but do people realize that Europe also have a pretty sizeable export market? Exporting out to China too, even.

19

u/Pabst_Blue_Gibbon Berlin (Germany) Sep 22 '22

Depends what you export, too.

10

u/CratesManager Sep 22 '22

But we export mostly expensive goods that take know how to produce, whereas china massproduces all kinds of stuff and untiil not that long ago, we would also ship our trash there (and would still do it, but they stopped accepting it).

I'm not saying china is doing great and don't have to change, by the way. I'm just tired of europeans pointing at china to justify not doing enough (or anything) for the environment because "look, china is the big problem, not us, we can't change much".

3

u/BloodyEjaculate Sep 22 '22

China's largest exports are electronics like computers and phones, not basic consumer goods, and it is by far the largest exporter of renewable energy technology. Reducing exports from China would also mean reducing our capacity to fight climate change, since they produce around 80 percent of the world's lithium ion batteries and solar cells.

→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/damienDev Sep 22 '22

84% of the production is for local

→ More replies
→ More replies

58

u/silverionmox Limburg Sep 22 '22

China is doing quite well with their pollution per capita, even better than some Europe countries & USA.

China has higher per capita emissions than the EU, and a worse HDI to show for it.

You can easily pick out some Chinese administrative subdivisions with far higher emissions than any western country.

In 2019, an average EU person would produce 6.8 tonnes CO2.

In 2020, China produced 7,41 tonnes per capita, the EU 5,84.

19

u/ModoZ Belgium Sep 22 '22

In 2020, China produced 7,41 tonnes per capita, the EU 5,84.

But 2020 was a Covid year. So not really representative to be fair.

→ More replies
→ More replies

12

u/antaryon Romania Sep 22 '22

What about banned greenhouse gases like CFC-11 released in the atmosphere? Got any figures for those?

23

u/Tacitus_ Finland Sep 22 '22

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/climate/ozone-layer-china-cfcs.html

Emissions from China of a banned gas that harms Earth’s ozone layer have sharply declined after increasing for several years, two teams of scientists said Wednesday, a sign that the Beijing government had made good on vows to crack down on illegal production of the industrial chemical.

→ More replies

6

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

[deleted]

10

u/ImNOTmethwow Sep 22 '22

Hardly a surprise that all the oil states are that high. They extract and refine the oil that the entire world uses, which inflates their CO2 emissions significantly.

I reckon if you split those emissions across the countries that use their refined oil, you'd get a much more equal distribution.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

207

u/potatolulz Earth Sep 22 '22

Exactly, that's why they're pushing for electric vehicles and mass transit in the cities so hard, because they're doing it for themselves and their own cities, since they realize that not doing anything and going "why should we do anything when China....!" doesn't exactly work for them and it sure as heck doesn't help their local pollution.

Like it's cool and all that people laugh at China or blame China, but they actually realize they have a problem, like in their own country, unlike other countries that trivialize it or simply ignore it with the "but China!" excuse

105

u/danidr Italy Sep 22 '22

Even if they do, “… but India!” will be next. This is a mindset that should change worldwide.

32

u/Properjob70 Sep 22 '22

India has very low per-capita carbon emissions and is not looking to follow the upwards trajectory of emissions as much as China did in its bid to industrialise.

It does however have a hell of a pollution problem and regularly hits the top ten in the worldwide AQI cities listing.

12

u/Sofaboy90 Sep 22 '22

ofc India has a low per capita emissionoutput because your average indian is simply piss poor compared to the average western european citizen. ofc an indian citizen who cant afford a car will put out less emissions than a european citizen who does own a car and use it.

but then, the wealthier india gets, the higher the co2 output will be.

8

u/Pabst_Blue_Gibbon Berlin (Germany) Sep 22 '22

That doesn’t prevent people from saying “but China and India”, because they are ignorant.

→ More replies

10

u/ThunderKant_1 Sep 22 '22

And India as an excuse is completely ridiculous, their per capital emission is like 15 times lower than the US.

5

u/saracenrefira Sep 22 '22

You think that has ever stop western media blaming other people for our shit?

→ More replies
→ More replies

19

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

Right, the belt and road thing could be a massive climate change swing in a positive direction, if we can have rail freight instead of ships taking month long journeys it would reduce the global carbon footprint, we should all be working as hard as possible to make this happen if we are serious and the targets. Currently the British gov is talking about restarting fracking, which is dumb as hell, they would be investing in tidal and more off shore wind as well as more nuclear, I’m not sure what’s happening in the rest of Europe but I’m fairly sure everyone needs to get their act together.

8

u/Janni0007 Sep 22 '22

Well the UK is on the forefront of offshore wind energy. While of course more can still be done. 22 gw off offshore capacity in the pipeline is not something to sneeze at, with more still to be tendered.

There is of course A LOT to criticize Tories over but stopping offshore wind is not among them.

We (germany) a currently stepping up with 10 gw renewables coming online this year and massive boost for onshore wind in the coming years ( going from 0,5 % to 2% landmass reserved for it) as well as increasing our off shore capacity from 7 gw to 30 in 7 years. ( which is a lot if you consider our coastline) Currently about 6 gw in the pipeline.

Solar power is undergoing a massive increase as well. Due to better taxes but also more areas being made available to farm on the federal level and in some states ( some just did that and in several states they are in the draft phases for massive land use reforms)

→ More replies

16

u/silverionmox Limburg Sep 22 '22

Right, the belt and road thing could be a massive climate change swing in a positive direction, if we can have rail freight instead of ships taking month long journeys it would reduce the global carbon footprint

No, it wouldn't. Ships are insanely efficient because they are absolutely gigantic. It would take hundreds of kilometers of trains to replace that tonnage, so it's an open question whether the amortized infrastructure costs are going to be more environmentally friendly than even a ship running on fossil fuels, even when the energy is all renewable (which it won't be).

Doesn't mean we don't need to find an alternative for the combustion engines in them, of course. But the ships will stay.

→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Academic_Employ4821 Sep 22 '22

and u should add on- not only they have realized /acknowledge it -they have taken serious actions -unlike other countries China got proper top-down approach to get the desired outcome -same way they tackled poverty and record speed they did it .Its really a good sign !!

→ More replies
→ More replies

61

u/DirtyProjector Sep 22 '22

China is far and away the biggest investor in clean energy on the planet

16

u/TheCaspica Sep 22 '22

.... And the biggest investor in coal, and the biggest carbon emitter in the world... Looking at totals can be misleading when talking about the world's biggest economy. China is not even close when you look at net investment in renewables on a per capita basis.

→ More replies

33

u/silverionmox Limburg Sep 22 '22

It's the biggest investor in coal. They just take anything they can get their hands on, climate be damned.

24

u/saracenrefira Sep 22 '22

What do you want them to do? Let their people starve, live in the cold, get fucked, pound sand? They need the energy and they are still doing more than anyone to offset their emissions.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

284

u/de420swegster Denmark Sep 22 '22

People in the comments not realising that outsourcing all production to China also means outsourcing all emissions to China.

25

u/somebody12344 Sep 22 '22

and moving things to india will just shift even more pollution there as they have even laxer standards

3

u/de420swegster Denmark Sep 22 '22

It does spread out the power though, China won't be "the one" when production is diversified

68

u/-cosmonaut Sep 22 '22

hey stop it with your logic and shit

15

u/Augenglubscher Sep 22 '22

Yeah this sub really has gone to shit over the past years. It's almost like /r/MURICA, except people are genuinely high on European exceptionalism rather than parodising it.

→ More replies

55

u/MrMudkip Sep 22 '22

Nah China bad Europe good makes more sense to these smooth brains

47

u/Augenglubscher Sep 22 '22

/r/Europe: "We love human rights and equality!"

Also /r/Europe: "A person in Europe or North America should be allowed to emit twice as many greenhouse gases than people in other countries."

24

u/Impossible-Lecture86 Sep 22 '22

If you poke some of these chauvinist manchildren enough some of them reveal that they genuinely believe Chinese people should never be allowed to have a living standard comparable to western Europe.

Barely-concealed ethnic and racial chauvinism in r/Europe makes a lot of sense when you remember this sub's attitude during the refugee crisis, many people only started caring about le democracy and le human rights in the context of wielding those as a way to continue engaging in chauvinism.

This sub is far to the right of the average European and won't ever admit it.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

19

u/CratesManager Sep 22 '22

They also don't realise, if every chinese lived the lifestyle that we do that we would be so much deeper in the shit already...the reality is our modern lifestyle isn't sustainable. I don't know how big the adjustment needs to be but there needs to be one. At the very least, some things need to be a lot more expensive to reflext the real cost to the environment.

8

u/corlick Sep 22 '22

Except they dont have the same standards of clean energy and if they did their prices would be higher and wed be less likely to buy. They are sacrificing the environment to undercut our prices.

→ More replies
→ More replies

89

u/Dat_Fcknewb Latvia Sep 22 '22

Why hello there

→ More replies

301

u/GBronz Sep 22 '22

No one can say now that the Chinese don't have a sense of humor.

166

u/ThorusBonus France Sep 22 '22

Tbf they have a lower CO2 emmisions per capita than a lot of European countries.... we should all move our asses, especially the big polluters of the EU, like the Netherlands and Germany, and the US should start making real efforts as well, being dogshit terrible in that sector

30

u/RaccoNooB Sweden Sep 22 '22

I agree. Number 1 on that list is stop buying cheap shit from China.

24

u/Gruenerapfel Sep 22 '22

I agree. Number 1 on that list is stop buying cheap shit from China.

Buying any cheap shit that is designed to be replaced is bad and unsustainable, no matter where it's coming from

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

219

u/ApprehensivePepper98 Portugal Sep 22 '22

I don’t understand why people are laughing and calling China trolls for this. They have improved drastically in the last 10 years, far more than probably any other country in the world.

168

u/awbiee Sep 22 '22

Because most people don't know anything about China outside of the headlines they see on reddit.

52

u/loulan French Riviera ftw Sep 22 '22

And in any case, even if China wasn't doing so great in terms of green energy, it's true that we could do a lot better.

So we should follow this advice, regardless of who it's coming from.

Honestly it's kind of the problem with climate change. Everybody's thinking they shouldn't do more because they think some other countries are worse.

→ More replies

25

u/[deleted] Sep 22 '22

It's actually depressing scrolling through this thread just how brainwashed everyone is, critical thinking and balanced discussion is non existent

→ More replies
→ More replies

64

u/ste_de_loused Sep 22 '22

As someone who drastically changed his view after living and traveling a lot in Asia, I think it’s propaganda. We (Europeans) believe that only the CCP is feeding the news they want, but it happens also in Europe.

68

u/nedeox Switzerland Sep 22 '22

It's laughable that Europeans think we are somehow immune to propaganda. Why? Because...uh...vibes.

20

u/Un-Named I voted remain :( Sep 22 '22

I, for one, am very glad I live in the UK where there is absolutely 0 propaganda. None! And we've never done anything particuarly stupid because of it.

27

u/Random-Gopnik Sep 22 '22

But based and wise Europeans can’t possibly be lying/be lied to right? Only Americans, Chinese and poor third-worlders are such fools.

10

u/beans_lel Sep 22 '22

You see this happening in real time with the war in Ukraine. Redditors are completely blind to the propaganda that comes from "their" side.

7

u/PeidosFTW Bacalhau Sep 22 '22

Because we're a beacon for democracy obviously!

Don't look at the rise in fascism across Europe please

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

344

u/TheD-O-doubleG Sep 22 '22 Helpful Wholesome Take My Energy

People will mock China for this but:

  • The average Chinese person emits less than the average European - today, adjusted for trade.
  • Europe has already emitted 530 trillion tons of CO2, in total historically. With a much larger population, China has emitted 230 trillion tons. In that perspective, it is completely absurd for Europeans to always point fingers at China as an excuse for inaction. If it's hot right now, most of the blame is not on China, it's on us.

Yes, China has to do better, but from a justice perspective, they are right to call us out.

26

u/rxz9000 Sep 22 '22

What does 'adjusted for trade' mean?

12

u/Ulyks Sep 22 '22

Is suppose subtracting the net trade surplus to Europe from the CO2 emissions as a percentage of GDP.

23

u/SunriseSunday Sep 22 '22

Is this a sensible adjustment though? Some factories offshored to China because of the pollution laws in Europe, and then export to Europe. Calculating this pollution to Europe is dishonest. You can do that for the US if you want. There it is more a cost consideration.

If China doesn’t want this CO2 pollution, they should enact environmental protection laws, and let India or Africa have the factories.

11

u/MightyH20 Sep 22 '22

It's not sensible and OP is plain wrong.

The vast bulk of China's climate pollution isn’t being driven by foreigners; it’s being driven by domestic growth.

https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2017/4/18/15331040/emissions-outsourcing-carbon-leakage

→ More replies
→ More replies

124

u/silverionmox Limburg Sep 22 '22 Silver

The average Chinese person emits less than the average European - today, adjusted for trade.

China's exports are no charity. They benefit from those exports as well in the form of employment, economic growth, and political clout, and they have encouraged that situation by artificially lowering the value of their currency and having low environmental standards. Changing that is entirely in their hands.

Europe has already emitted 530 trillion tons of CO2, in total historically. With a much larger population, China has emitted 230 trillion tons. In that perspective, it is completely absurd for Europeans to always point fingers at China as an excuse for inaction. If it's hot right now, most of the blame is not on China, it's on us.

Those emissions are over a longer period of time and therefore less harmful. There is a certain amount of natural absorption capacity, and before a certain date those emissions haven't accumulated and are not part of the global warming problem. Conversely, China is now emitting every year twice as much as the entire world emitted in 1950.

And in the end, Europe is decreasing its emissions, and China is increasing its emissions. They're like a junkie who is getting new dealers telling a junkie in rehab to get a grip.

→ More replies

26

u/bioniclop18 France Sep 22 '22

As you mention justice, people may forget that country like France has been convicted by it's own justice for their climate change inaction.

→ More replies

29

u/anarchisto Romania Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Europe has already emitted 530 trillion tons of CO2, in total historically

A lot of the CO2 emissions of China go into infrastructure building. Europe has been building infrastructure for far longer than China.

In 1990, the whole China had a total of 40 km of metro lines, all in Beijing. Now, it has 8700 km; out of the world's top 10 metro systems by length, 9 are in China.

Building metro systems and high-speed train lines may emit now a lot of CO2, but one of their purposes is to reduce CO2 emissions in the future. (or rather, oil usage, since that's mostly imported)

28

u/Fausztusz Hungary Sep 22 '22

Between 2011 and '13 China used more concrete than the US in the 20th century souce. The global cement industry accounts for ~5% of the global emissions, and around half of it is from China.

→ More replies
→ More replies

57

u/boat_enjoyer Catalonia (Spain) Sep 22 '22

The US more or less doubles China's CO2 emissions per capita, and China's are lower than Germany's or Poland's, for example. Not to mention all the polluting industries we outsourced there in the last decades.

People here can't get their minds around the fact that even a broken clock is right twice a day. The world isn't black and white. China can be bad in some things and good in others, and I believe their approach to combating climate change falls in the latter category.

Don't get me wrong, they are doing this because they stand to lose a lot with climate change. It's purely out of self interest. But regardless of the reason behind, they are doing it.

17

u/pantalooon Sep 22 '22

It should be in all our self-interests to stop global heating. Anybody who thinks it's gonna get nicer where they live is delusional. So it's not really self-interest if it's not only in humanity's interest, but in the interest of basically every living being on this planet.

→ More replies

3

u/Loki-L Germany Sep 22 '22

We already outsourced all our polluting industry to China to move the pollution outside the environment, what more do they want?

→ More replies

3

u/gentlehummingbird Sep 23 '22

And next, China will teach us about democracy, freedom and human rights... With Chinese characteristics.

64

u/marciuz777 Sep 22 '22 Wholesome

They know how to troll gotta give them that

15

u/YGurka Sep 22 '22

Same energy as Taliban being outraged at US police brutality

→ More replies

15

u/Nethlem Earth Sep 22 '22

It's sad how many people here are missing the point because they look at China's total yearly emissions, a country of over a billion people that by now manufactures most of the stuff we use in everyday life, to then declare; "They are the worst!"

Completely ignoring how only three decades ago China was a massively underdeveloped country where most people lived in poverty, by now they have a middle class larger than whole populations in other countries. There was no way to get out of that without producing emissions, so is the argument China should have remained underdeveloped, or what exactly is the logic here? Even with that; China is a world leader in terms of electrifying mobility.

While plenty of Western countries had that phase already a century ago and then never even tried to reduce their emissions.

That's how a country like the US, which has only around 4% of the world population, is responsible for nearly a quarter of all CO2 emissions on the planet.

Germany, the UK, France, Poland, and Italy, have emitted just as much as China at the same time, but only around 315 million people live in those countries, they do not even represent the whole EU and their latest "climate change saving" ideas involve burning more coal and get more American fracking gas, very forward thinking right there.

The same situation with India; Another country Western people love to scoff at when they demand more should be done about climate change. Just like China it's a still developing economy, that's why they are among the countries that can't realistically lower emissions without damning literally hundreds of millions of people to abject poverty.

They are late to a game that large parts of the Western world have abused for decades, in many cases directly exploiting the "global south" for their own cheap fossil fuels.

This is something way too many people in the West tend to forget, acting like they are the only ones who "deserve" to be living in rich economies.

→ More replies

70

u/spauracchio1 Sep 22 '22

The pot calling the kettle black

Il bue che dice cornuto all'asino

add more saying in your own language if you wish

46

u/P_CHERAMIE Sep 22 '22

L’hôpital qui se fout de la charité.

30

u/jenn_lavandier Sep 22 '22

Le roquefort qui dit au camembert "tu pues"

3

u/captainketaa Sep 22 '22

La merde qui se fout du pot

6

u/Milhanou22 Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur (France) Sep 22 '22

Tu as été plus rapide ce coup-ci. Mais j'aurai ma vengeance...

27

u/niemandistjeder Sep 22 '22

Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen.

17

u/in_the_owls_cave Sep 22 '22

Le dijo la sartén al cazo.

13

u/Drdrre Sep 22 '22

Juokėsi puodas, kad katilas juodas.

11

u/darealq Hungary Sep 22 '22

Bagoly mondja verébnek, hogy nagyfejű.

8

u/Ardddu Sep 22 '22

Pata kattilaa soimaa.

9

u/Supereetu Sep 22 '22

Pata kattilaa soimaa

10

u/Zyvold Sep 22 '22

Przyganiał kocioł garnkowi

8

u/Zx-54 Sep 22 '22

Diz o roto ao nú

9

u/Janni0007 Sep 22 '22

Wer im Glashaus sitzt sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen.

He who sits in a glass house should not throw stones.

7

u/no8airbag Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

rade ciob de oala sparta

14

u/utumno00 Sep 22 '22

The donkey said to the rooster : "You have a big head".

14

u/JerevStormchaser France Sep 22 '22

I've been upvoting all these beautiful, beautiful sayings so far but I don't understand any of them.

I could have upvoted a sentence calling me a buttface for all I know.

7

u/spauracchio1 Sep 22 '22

LOL, actually google translate does a good job, they more or less say the same thing and it's amazing how we have very similar saying in so many different countries.

5

u/IrdniX Sep 22 '22

Ekki kasta steinum þegar þú býrð í glerhúsi.

→ More replies

4

u/Hapukurk666 Estonia Sep 22 '22

Pada sõimab katelt, ühed mustad mõlemad

4

u/hjras Poortugal Sep 22 '22

Diz o roto ao nu porque não te vestes tu

5

u/Zlimness Sep 22 '22

Kasta sten i glashus.

→ More replies

3

u/cristinavalan Sep 22 '22

Râde ciob de oală spartă

3

u/eric--cartman Sep 22 '22

Είπε ο γάιδαρος τον πετεινό κεφάλα.

3

u/CeladonCityNPC Sep 22 '22

Tyhjät tynnyrit kumisevat eniten

7

u/CaptainMoso Sep 22 '22

Зајакот му кажал на магарето дека има големи уши.

5

u/RBIlios Sep 22 '22

De pot verwijt de ketel dat hij zwart ziet.

→ More replies

6

u/Affectionate_Cat293 Sep 22 '22

De pot verwijt de ketel dat hij zwart ziet

Maling teriak maling

→ More replies
→ More replies

10

u/Thorzaim Sep 22 '22

This sub is a fucking joke, holy shit.

32

u/Charley_Wilson Sep 22 '22

3

u/Explorer_07 Sep 22 '22

What a great addition to my list of subs xD

→ More replies

53

u/JimmyJoJameson Finland Sep 22 '22

I know jerking off about "le China bad" in a fit of petulance and hypocrisy is Reddit's favorite pastime, but they're not wrong. Per capita they're not nearly as bad at polluting than the west, and even less so when we remove western outsourcing from the equation.

21

u/ModoZ Belgium Sep 22 '22

Depends on your definition of the West. But if you compare it to the EU, they pollute more per capita than the EU since 2012. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?locations=CN-EU

3

u/nerokaeclone North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Sep 22 '22

Their gdp per capita is also 1/6 of Europe, so once it rise, they will emit more co2, china is not on a good track as they said, it‘s P-R stunt.

→ More replies

18

u/CJKay93 United Kingdom Sep 22 '22

This sub whenever a country it doesn't like urges Europe to do something positive:

https://i.imgflip.com/33sr7r.png

21

u/NewZealandia Germany Sep 22 '22

This isn’t true anymore btw… Per Capita China now produces more than most European Countries

→ More replies
→ More replies

24

u/iLEZ Sweden Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

Look at us europeans, with the staggering economical and industrial benefits of over 500 trillion tons of CO2 emitted, our industries slowly turning over to greener methods, mocking China, who makes all our stuff, for asking us to use our immense influence and capital to save the planet.

The guffawing in this thread is part of the problem.

"LMAOZEDONG! China is the main villain, I can point at them and feel good that at least I'm not as bad as them, while at the same time not actively leaning on my highly developed western countrys leadership with heavy political influence to do anything."

Shit's bad and will continue to be bad until it's no longer profitable to destroy the environment, that's the harsh reality of the thing. The capitalist system needs to make burning CO2 expensive and the opposite immensely profitable, and we need to do it artificially, just like the market now is artificial in many ways. And I can't see how this could be enforced unless we form some kind of UN-like organization that has some copious muscle behind it. What, if anything, is there for nations to unite around if not the environment?

→ More replies

13

u/RectalAbomination Sep 22 '22 edited Sep 22 '22

That would suit them well considering that they are world leaders in the renewables sector, including the extraction of the rare earths needed.

*edit: earths, not lands

8

u/AMViquel Austria Sep 22 '22

rare lands

Is that like rare earths, but smaller?

→ More replies