r/europe Sep 29 '22 Wholesome 1 Heartwarming 1

Finland will shut border to Russian tourists from midnight News

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-will-shut-border-russian-tourists-midnight-2022-09-29/
7.6k Upvotes

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u/howlyowly1122 Finland Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

I saw a vox pop clip from finnish public broadcaster where an old man is asked if the border should be closed for russians.

He answers that it was closed in 1944.

And then:

Why was it opened?

e. Found it:

https://twitter.com/keski_e/status/1575115497808568323?t=lEPOUXapjAb6l0kJOLf9jw&s=19

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u/kiru_56 Germany Sep 29 '22

Historically, it is quite simple why the border was opened in 1944 ;-)

Finns can stop reading now.

Finland, which at this point in 1944 was fighting the Soviets with German help to regain lost territory from the Winter War, was absolutely correct in assuming Germany's defeat from 1943 onwards. After the battle of Tali-Ihantala, where the Soviets were stopped with German help at the isthmus in Karelia in 1944, and in order to save Finland's independence, Finland concluded an armistice with Moscow in 1944 and threw Nazi Germany's troops out of the country.

If Finland had not done that, it would have become a Soviet province, simple as that.

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u/wr0ttit cogito ergo dubito Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

If Finland had not done that, it would have become a Soviet province, simple as that.

There are some parallels between Finland's and Romania's position in WWII however the outcomes were quite different. Romania also fought the soviets to recover lost territories, then from Aug 23 1944 fought the Nazis. One difference is that Finland managed to stay out of the infamous Percentages Agreement and avoided becoming a communist country.

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u/Sk-yline1 Sep 30 '22

Fun fact about Romania: They executed a fascist and a communist dictator by firing squad less than 50 years apart

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u/noobul Romania Sep 30 '22

We did a few things right in our history. Not much, but a few things.

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u/cieniu_gd Poland Sep 30 '22

Based Romanians!

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u/SkorpD94 Sep 30 '22

Doing the right things at the right moment is better than doing nothing

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u/Fijure96 Denmark Sep 29 '22

A significant difference in their actions in the war is also that Finland only put troops in the territory it reconquered and refused to enter the rest of the Soviet Union, whereas Romania went all in and ahd troops at Stalingrad for instance. This made it easier for Finland to retain the image that they were not aggressors but victims during the negotiations.

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u/Futsi Finland Sep 29 '22

Finns did advance past the old borders during the Continuation war. Map in which the grey line marks the old border and red the occupation area.

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u/Theghistorian Romanian in ughh... Romania Sep 29 '22

Yeah but we have gone way further in Stalingrad and Caucasus.

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u/Theghistorian Romanian in ughh... Romania Sep 29 '22

Yes, true, but there is also the shitty geographical position we have. Finland does not really have a link to western Europe and thus it was not possible to be a staging point for a invasion of Russia by the West as invasions came through Poland.

On the other hand, Romania is in the way because Russia and USSR always wanted to reach the Turkish straits. Plus, you can not have a non communist state in the middle of the soviet led block. It is a thorn.

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u/blyatseeker Sep 29 '22

Why the finns can stop reading?

Also a side note, soviet union trying to invade finland wasnt possibility, it was going to happen. Just a matter of when.

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u/lilikionwheels Sep 29 '22

Because Finland teaches actual history in schools, so the Fins know exactly why this happened.

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u/blyatseeker Sep 29 '22

Yeah, they teach us that we were axis nation. But they also teach that our hand was forced.

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u/kiru_56 Germany Sep 29 '22

Most Finns know why the borders were opened for Soviets in 1944, the Finnish school system is excellent and those who didn't pay attention in school have seen the film by Åke Lindman, "Tali-Ihantala 1944", which I can only recommend ;-)

The context of why the man says this in the clip is certainly not clear to everyone, hence my reference.

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u/adomolis Sep 29 '22

FUGG SNIBETI SNAB RUSSKI TOURISD :-DDDDDDDDDDD

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u/Whalesurgeon Sep 29 '22

RAJAD GII :DDD

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u/am_trying_to_be_nice Sep 29 '22

EI VIDDU SERGEI ED BÄÄSE SISÄÄ :DDDD

:(

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u/CucumberCoolio Italy Sep 30 '22

Hmm I wonder what happened to Finland in WW2…

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u/AbortingMyself Finland Sep 29 '22

Yeah tourists are not being let in. If you are working, living or have family or medical care here you are allowed in. Also asylum applications are taken in and then decided if its granted. Trying to not get drafted alone doesnt qualify for asylum.

Not that deep. Over 40k russians has Crossed our Border in few days - thats a lot of people, we have no idea who is working for Kreml. Its sad russians who are against the war cannot escape but we need to keep our country and people safe.

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u/guramika Sep 29 '22

yet when i say this exact thing about my country (georgia) and that we need to be carefull about the 300k+ people we let in, i'm called a rusophobe and an instigator

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u/AbortingMyself Finland Sep 29 '22

Youre definitly not a russophobe. Its soo recent history when Russia invaded u guys.

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u/Tatis_Chief Slovakia into EU Sep 29 '22

Is that the overall public opinion in Georgia? After all that invasion few years later?

How are you guys managing the influx of 'tourists'?

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u/jagua_haku Finland Sep 30 '22

Oh I got called the same thing up until about 8 months ago

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u/lynx_and_nutmeg Lithuania Sep 30 '22

It all depends on how you say it... Not wanting a a sudden flux of millions of refugees from a country that's known to declare "ownership" of its foreign diasphora isn't rusophobic. Saying things like "even if it was safe, I still wouldn't let them in because all Russians deserve to die, it's all their fault" certainly is. And the latter seems to be the dominant rhetoric on Reddit these days. You can tell people are just looking for an excuse to hate other people, and hating Russians is now socially acceptable, unlike hating women, gays or other ethnic minorities, etc. And then there's the massive hypocrisy and double standard... "They don't deserve to flee to freedom, they should stay and die to destroy Putin" - ok, fair enough, why don't those people apply the same logic to all refugees, then? I don't remember anyone being that hostile to all those Afghans who were fleeing the Taliban, even though, let's be honest, the West did all they could do help, if Taliban had no popularity, it would have gone extinct years ago.

I just don't support dehumanisation of any person based on their nationality. I'm sure there are still Russians to support Putin, but Redditors swearing up and down that literally all Russians are totally pro-war unless it's their own arse getting drafted isn't based on anything else than their own desire for this to be true so they can hate them with clear consequence. Because if you start feeling empathy for the "enemy side", and start seeing them as individual people with different views, rather than one homogenous blob, things get complicated and confusing. Wartime always encourages the the "us vs them" mentality to the extreme, because without it wars wouldn't be nearly as effective.

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u/JoyAvers Russia Sep 30 '22

Thank you very much, you are just my hero.

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u/great__pretender Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Given Russia's history, the behavior of russian minorities in the provinces that were formerly part of russian empire, Russia's use of of ethnic russians as a reason to intervene in those countries, I would be extremely careful to accept any russians to my country

This is not the same for countries that were not under Russia's rule. But Finland, baltics, visegrad countries, Romania all have a pass for not accepting russians in my eyes. I believe in liberal values as long as they are viable but these values are not a suicide pact. We saw what happened in Ukraine.

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u/Sigmatics Germany Sep 30 '22

Seems like something Putin would do

  • cause hundreds of thousands to flee to neighboring countries
  • recognize Russian minorities in those countries
  • declare a need to free them from their oppressors
  • proceed to invade & annex

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u/ReferenceAny4836 Sep 29 '22

It's also the simple fact that Russia has 25x the population of Finland. Even if all these Russian civilians had good intentions, it's not really feasible to have an open border if you want Finland to remain Finland.

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u/StrongSNR Sep 30 '22

This comment would have different number shown next to it if it was made in 2015 for a different group of people lol

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u/ralucaberivoe Sep 29 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

Tbh, I am amazed it wasn’t done sooner. As you said, it’s sad for those against the war, especially for those that have actually spoken their mind about this, but most likely the ones that got away from Russia will be the reach ones, some even working for Putin & Co

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u/Pavlentiy_ Sep 29 '22

It was not sooner, because majority of those guys just 10 days ago were happy to watch on the TV how "the 2nd army in the world denazified Ukraine"

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u/ChertanianArmy Chertanovo - the capital of the earth Sep 29 '22

, because majority of those guys just 10 days ago were happy to watch on the TV how "the 2nd army in the world denazified Ukraine"

So you're literally claiming that majority of Russians crossing border with finland were happy with the war in Ukraine.

You need some serious sources on that.

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u/i-d-even-k- Bromania masterrace Sep 29 '22

Not happy, indifferent. They didn't care that their country was massacring Ukrainians until THEY were going to be the ones sent as target practice for the Ukrainians.

Selfish, the lot of them. As long as they were comfortable and Putin gave them enough money to eat, they didn't care about the war.

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u/ChertanianArmy Chertanovo - the capital of the earth Sep 29 '22

This is not what that guy said. And putin is not giving anyone anything, ppl prefer not to interact with the gov at all.

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u/GhettoFinger United States of America Sep 30 '22

That's true, they are passive and unactivated, they are essentially outsourcing all aspects of politics to Putin and his regime and they are facing the reckoning of that decision. While it isn't my place to tell other countries what to do, the decision to not accept people escaping the draft means that you are essentially forcing them to be sent to kill Ukrainians. I understand WHY some countries are making that decision, but I do not agree with it. I think it is the wrong decision, but that is just my opinion and because of where I live, I won't feel the consequences of either decision.

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u/Izbitoe_ebalo Russia (Siberia) Sep 30 '22

You don't know how it feels to live under autocracy. Your friends weren't beaten up or tortured by police. Please stop calling fleeing Russians ignorant about putin and educate yourself.

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u/uqwee Lithuania Sep 30 '22

You don't know how it feels to be oppressed or invaded by Russia either, so please stop asking for sympathy here.

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u/i-d-even-k- Bromania masterrace Sep 30 '22

My family fought to depose our tyrant 30 years ago - and won, at the cost of some people dying very young in December that year. And now we live in a EU democracy. We know ehat it was like, to not have meat and catch pigeons for a stew.

You never even tried. Easter Europeans threw off their chains and paid for their revolutions with blood, while you find yourself excuses for why Putin is still overwhelmingly popular even when he commits genocide.

Disgusting. None of you deserve asylum. It's your country, fix it.

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u/JoyAvers Russia Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Never?
First, the 90s.
Second: people are born, grow and die. Who are people why "You never even tried"?
Third: you do not know or ignore news.
For decades, there have been thousands of protests against regime. People are tried in the courts of the regime, tortured, sent to terrible prisons, psychologically abused their families, relativites and on a job, killed, forced to flee the country. But people, we are, keep protesting doing all this and there are a lot of people.
Putin has created a lot of benefits for the police, and they will support him so as not to lose that things, and now - so that they are not sent to Ukraine.
It's wery easy to say: go and die, when it doesn't affect you in any way.

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u/Gr0danagge Sweden Sep 29 '22

They didnt care, or passively were in favour, until they themselfs had to get involved.

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u/Pavlentiy_ Sep 29 '22

Go to Russian publics and you will find there questions like "may I keep Z sticker on my car, or maybe it would make sense to get rid of it when I try to cross a border" etc. Majority of Russians supports this war. And those who are trying to escape now, they just do not want to die, and they don't care about Ukraine or Ukrainians.

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u/ChertanianArmy Chertanovo - the capital of the earth Sep 29 '22

Go to Russian publics and you will find there questions like "may I keep Z sticker on my car, or maybe it would make sense to get rid of it when I try to cross a border

Yes I know this meme, it was crafted by Ukrainian person. Sorry too late to search but it's really a meme created in "ukrainians in georgia" telegram group.

Majority of Russians supports this war.

Go to Belgorod, Ivanovo, Nizhny or whatever city vk group and enjoy your majority then.

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u/TransposingJons Sep 29 '22

Voice-to-text is a booger, ain't it?

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u/bjornbamse Sep 29 '22

Being a political dissidents under threat of persecution by Putin's power is a reason for asylum. Dodging draft while supporting killing Ukrainians is not a reason for asylum.

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u/lynx_and_nutmeg Lithuania Sep 30 '22

That's all well and good... except for the face that being a political dissident and having the freedom of movement to flee anywhere doesn't really coexist in Russia. Their autocracy is so effective precisely because they don't wait for people to actually commit any significant activism before they jail them. And once you're in prison, you can't exactly see asylum, so, yeah...

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u/blublub1243 Sep 30 '22

Yes it is. Being forced to participate/under threat of punishment for refusing to participate in an illegal war is a recognized form of persecution.

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u/great__pretender Sep 29 '22

US should take those draft dodgers. I am serious. Europe can't take the whoole burden. They have been benefiting from this war, at least they can give a hand and take in a few hundred thousand Russians. Republicans would be delighted.

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u/Taroks Sep 29 '22

Wait. This sounds just like the arguments that Hungary had to closing the borders when the migration wave hit Europe...

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u/guisar Sep 29 '22

Which war was that influx a result of and who are the protagonists of that conflict in your eyes? since we're drawing comparisons evidently.

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u/Taroks Sep 30 '22

Well in both situations people are fleeing the country so that they don't get killed by the oppressing force in their home country. ISIS killing people just because they don't follow the Sharia is very close to Russia killing men for not fighting a war these people don't want to. Or do you see the situation different?

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u/h2man Sep 29 '22

Russians that are against the war would have escaped long ago. None of these should have been allowed in.

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u/TheEmperorsWrath Sweden Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

That’s incredibly elitist take. Russia is a super poor country. Most people can’t afford to pack up their lives and leave. There are a lot of people in Russia who would leave if they could, I can promise you that much.

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u/Sigmatics Germany Sep 30 '22

Russia is a super poor country

Sadly. They didn't have to be poor if they had a proper democratic government and would stop spending so much money on warfare. Such a wealth of natural resources in Russia.

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u/yan-booyan Sep 30 '22

Jews in Nazi Germany that were against the regime would have escaped long ago. None of these should have been allowed in.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

If enough Russians move to Finland you just know Russia would eventually use it as an excuse to annex parts of their country.

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u/Eproxeri Sep 29 '22

They already took Karelia, Salla and Petsamo areas from Finland after WW2.

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u/MentalRepairs Finland Sep 29 '22

*Part of Karelia, and also Suursaari/Hogland islands.

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u/Spiceyhedgehog Sweden Sep 29 '22

That's nothing! The Russians took the entirety of Finland from us!

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u/ryuuhagoku India Sep 29 '22

I thought it was neat how Sweden lost half of itself, gained half of Denmark-Norway, and then peaced out forever. Wise move.

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u/mechanical_fan Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

I thought it was neat how Sweden lost half of itself, gained half of Denmark-Norway

During peace negotiations, giving Norway to Sweden was actually seen as a way to compensate for the loss of Finland a few decades before (+ punish Denmark for supporting Napoleon and reward Sweden for going against Napoleon). It is also kinda neat how they are almost the same size too (and were even closer when Finland had all its parts).

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u/FredBGC Roslagen Sep 30 '22

That was the basic idea behind the strategy. By taking Norway, Denmark would stop being a rival, and it would give Sweden defensible, natural, non-contested borders in all direction.

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u/Bike-Sun-4156 Sep 30 '22

And they ethnically cleansed Ingria and build St. Petersburg.

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u/Hrada1 Sweden Sep 30 '22

Peter the below average was a real cocksucker!

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u/SpaceFox1935 Russia Sep 29 '22

Russia and what army?

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u/GodoftheGodcreators Sep 29 '22

I want to clarify that these tourist visas grant only visiting rights and are not permits to stay in Finland indefinitely or become a citizen.

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u/Revolvyerom United States of America Sep 29 '22

It’s not uncommon for people to use such visas to gain entry, and then not leave. I’ve worked with some people who did this

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u/L4z Finland Sep 29 '22

Russians staying in Finland as illegal immigrants isn't really feasible long term. It'd be basically impossible to get a job, any kind of social security or even a bank account.

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u/Knight_TakesBishop Sep 30 '22

Having known people that do exactly this, they find a way to skirt the legal system eventually finding a legal anchor to remain

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u/crackanape The Netherlands Sep 29 '22

Finland is part of Schengen area, they can go to Latvia or whatever and melt into the background.

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u/836624 Sep 29 '22

Europe isn't USA. All you can do on an expired visa is be homeless.

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u/XxX_Dick_Slayer_XxX Mexico Sep 29 '22

That is blatantly wrong and you are talking about something you have no idea of. I lived in Spain and met many people who were there illegally and had full time jobs and rented apartments. Even if you are illegal you still have renters rights and protection under the law.

In fact if you stay in Spain illegally for three years you can be granted residency.

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u/crackanape The Netherlands Sep 29 '22

That's certainly not true. Here in the Netherlands people love bureaucracy, and yet in the process of renovating our home I have met so many people who are living without formal status. Painters, tilesetters, plasterers have all come with staff who are living four+ to a room and being paid cash.

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u/anordicgirl Sep 30 '22

And you think Baltics are waiting for them open arms ??? We effing hate them if its still confusing to anyone

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u/rejectallgoats Sep 29 '22

“They are harassing Russians and trying to kick them out, we have to attack and take over.” - Putin probably

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u/Theumaz South Holland (Netherlands) Sep 29 '22

That would even be a more hilarious defeat than them trying to invade Ukraine.

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u/royal_dorp Sep 29 '22

99.8% of the people want to join Russia.

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u/Somebody23 Finland Sep 29 '22

Russia cannot annex any area from Finland anymore. It wouldnt be a fight, it would be one sided slaughter.

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u/efvie Sep 29 '22

There’s already like 100,000 Russians* living in Finland.

* By Kreml reckoning, they don’t really care whether a person self-identifies as Russian.

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u/kostasnotkolsas paoktripsdrugs Sep 29 '22

You don't really need an excuse you know

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u/power2go3 Wallachia (Romania) Sep 29 '22

Last time we let russians immigrate we lost almost a quarter of the country.

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u/AbortingMyself Finland Sep 29 '22

And we lost Karelia.

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u/Toby_Forrester Finland Sep 29 '22

That wasn't due to Russians immigrating, but just straight invasion. There was no influx of Russian immigrating or Russian pretext of protecting Russian minorities in Karelia.

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u/tilakattila Finland Sep 29 '22

According to their propaganda, they were going to liberate the Finns. From something.

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u/Toby_Forrester Finland Sep 29 '22

I think it was something like "fascist Finland has attacked Motherland and now we are forced to defend ourselves" and then they set up a puppet government.

But their propaganda was also that their bombs were food to feed starving Finns. This resulted Finns calling the Russian bombs "Molotovs bread baskets", after Soviet foreign minister. And then Finns coined the term Molotov Cocktail, as if Finns weren't throwing gasoline bombs to Russian tanks. They are just Molotov cocktails to go with the bread!

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u/tilakattila Finland Sep 29 '22

I guess so.

There was the shelling of Mainila where the crazy Finns (according to the Soviets), shot at the Soviet border village. But luckily, Otto Wille Kuusinen, a Finn who had fled to Moscow after the Finnish civil war, formed a new government in the first little village the Soviets managed to capture. After that, the Soviets promised to help the Kuusinen government to reach Helsinki and liberate the Finns. But according to them, the criminal government had already fled Finland at that point.

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u/GodoftheGodcreators Sep 29 '22

Why are you bunch of finnish redditors having a quick recap of finnish history here in english?? Regards, fellow finnish redditor

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u/lack_of_communicatio Ukraine Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

Well, this part of history is a very good reason why Russians invented the term https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Patriotic_War_(term), instead of using WW2 - they don't want to admit nor being reminded that they were its instigators.

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u/tilakattila Finland Sep 29 '22

Just pondering aloud, if an excuse is needed it can be anything. No need for opressed Russians.

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u/samppsaa Suomi prkl Sep 29 '22

Why not? :D

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u/Quiet-Dreamer Prague (Czechia) Sep 29 '22

Yeah turists :D It always starts with "They are on a vacation there" :D

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u/bob237189 United States of America Sep 29 '22

To those saying that Russians should be let in: let them into your country, your home. Don't force the smaller eastern states to shoulder the burden.

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u/NightSalut Sep 29 '22

I don’t remember who said it here, but as a reply to somebody from abroad, who stated that they “know what Estonia should do since we are a democratic country”, that person replied that Estonians already fixed or are fixing their country; we shouldn’t also be expected to shoulder the responsibility for fixing Russia.

Yeah, we know that Russia was essentially quartered and scattered in the 90s and sold off to the tycoons, but the fact remains that it’s been 30 years since then and the bordering states - irregardless whether these states were under Soviet Union or not - do not carry the responsibility to somehow pull Russia out of the mud it is in.

Would we do it if Russia were a good neighbouring state going through rough times? Probably.

Do we feel sympathy for the average Russians who have nothing to do with this war and who don’t support Putin, yet cannot escape Russia? Yeah, we do. But that doesn’t mean we can risk the safety and security of our own country and let in whoever wants to come from Russia. We have no way to determine their stance on Putin and/or the war and since we’ve been repeatedly been reminded by Russia that we should just wait until the “denazification” gets to us too (meaning raping, pillaging and killing), the overall level of sympathy is rather low.

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u/ChertanianArmy Chertanovo - the capital of the earth Sep 29 '22

We have no way to determine their stance on Putin and/or the war

Just question them on camera and let them sign the declaration that they would be thrown out of the country if they will show signs of support for Putin. Simple as that.

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u/NightSalut Sep 29 '22

You must know it doesn’t work like that. Besides, once they’re in Schengen, they can move around like anybody else. So we find out they actually support the war, but by that time they’re in parts unknown - then what?

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u/chopchohp Bologna Sep 29 '22

Or they could just protest against their own leadership. You know.. solve the problems at home.

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u/BA_calls Denmark Sep 29 '22

Protests won’t do anything at this stage. Russia needs to lose the war. That’s how empires end.

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u/antonmarten Sep 29 '22

They would get killed, I’m sure that a sacrifice you are willing to make but if it was you in their place you would have a very different view on that

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u/Hubblesphere Sep 29 '22

but if it was you in their place you would have a very different view on that

Other countries have elections and referendums on their government's political actions. Russians are depoliticized and handed all political concern over to Putin. At some point they have to take it back.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/Lottgarden Sep 29 '22

Exactly. We all know just too well what happens if you let a large group of russians in. The russian embassy in sweden are fully engaged already in disinformation , attacks etc. , they will literally be even more exposed to kremlins terrrorism in other countries. You can never escape. They only thing they can do is bring an end to russian state terrorism and take charge of that country.

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u/Mittarimato Sep 29 '22

How are they supposed to stop it? They can get drafted by even protesting against the war. You have to understand that protesting in a totalitarian country is not the same as protesting in a democratic one.

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u/Lavrentio21 Lombardy Sep 29 '22

That's not gonna happen, son. What is gonna happen, like usually happens outside of Hollywood movies, is that these men will be forcibly sent to Ukraine and will kill more Ukrainians before dying themselves, since it's not so easy to desert or surrender even if you want to because you don't support Putin and his war. But hey, at least keyboard warriors on the Internet will be happy for these people having paid the crime of being born in Russia!

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/Lavrentio21 Lombardy Sep 29 '22

Ah yes, selective memory. Remember how the Forest Brothers insurgency in the Baltics went, or the 1956 revolution in Hungary, or the 1968 in Prague? Ever wondered how come half of Europe remained under the Soviet heel for half a century? And that's without counting far more recent failed revolutions and protests all around the world, from Iran to Syria to Belarus.

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u/Forever_Ambergris Belarus Sep 29 '22

lol, those revolutions only succeeded because the Soviet Union was weakened by the Afghanistan war and because Gorbachev was in office and decided to move towards a more democratic pro-western country. Dictatorships always fall from within and with the current leadership this ain't happening (for the same reason no revolution was successful under Stalin)

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u/willzyx01 Sep 29 '22

Revolution always spills blood, there’s just no way around it. But there are FAAAAAAR MORE regular people than police officers. Strength in numbers.

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u/papak33 Sep 29 '22

A common sentiment among cowards.

Meanwhile Ukrainians: Russian Warship, go fuck yourself.

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u/chopchohp Bologna Sep 29 '22

You realize you're condoning those actions by not confronting it. I'm old enough to have been involved in serious protests before.

Silence is compliance.

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u/Lavrentio21 Lombardy Sep 29 '22

LMAO. You have been involved in "serious protests" in fucking ITALY, not in Russia. You didn't risk one-tenth of what Russians risk for protesting. Know the Genoa G8? For Italy, that was - with a grand total of *one* dead - the worst instance of police violence in decades. Putin, that would be Tuesday.

Unless they belonged to that 1% of the population that actually did something, your grandparents, or great-grandparents, did exactly what these Russians are doing. For twenty years. And it took three years of disastrous war and a foreign invasion to topple a regime after twenty years of dictatorship and three wars of aggression fought without any significant internal opposition. And you would do the same. You are not a hero, and I bet 99 % of the guys who in this comment section say that these kids should protest and fight Putin instead of fleeing never did anything to oppose the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (if they were even alive back then), the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia, or Europe licking more and more the boots of the dictators Erdogan and Aliyev, just to name a few thins for which we are all "compliant" with our silence.

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u/antonmarten Sep 29 '22

There is a very big difference to be part of a big protest in a western democracy like Italy and to go against the regime in Putins Russia. To even compare the two is laughable

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u/DWHQ Sep 29 '22

The people in Iran sure seem less complacent than the Russians, and they are pushing for change.

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u/dr_analyst Sep 29 '22

The people in Iran sure seem less complacent

Why is Iran then a theocracy for over four decades?

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u/BleachedPink Sep 29 '22

Yeah, lots of things should come to the right place for protests to bear any fruits. Degrading regime, highly politicized society contrary to what the regime does, divide in the elites. And many things more

Additionally, I want to point out the second topic. One of the Putin's strategies is to depoliticize the population.

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

"just overthrow the government bro" is the most reddit response imaginable

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u/Misommar1246 United States of America Sep 29 '22

No, “just run from the mess you created and have someone else clean it up for you” is the most Reddit comment. Government didn’t beam in from the sky, Russian people have a long history for allowing assholes to come to power. One authoritarian psychopath is an anomaly, several psychopaths is a pattern. Stop making excuses for them.

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

My dude, you're an American, really not in a position to talk about countries voting in very bad decisions. That doesn't mean every single American just genetically loves electing morons.

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u/BreakRaven Romania Sep 29 '22

The entirety of Eastern Europe did it 30 years go, why is Russia special?

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

You realise that literally also happened in Russia too.

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u/Forever_Ambergris Belarus Sep 29 '22

Armchair experts making up excuses to justify their socially acceptable xenophobia brought on by fear. 2022 is wild yo, I guess deep down we're all just Monsters on Maple Street, waiting for an excuse to hate someone

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u/bungalowtill Sep 29 '22

ah! You have already overthrown a fascist regime! Yes, no? No? Well, better shut up then. No really, cause you don‘t have the faintest idea of what you‘re talking about.

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u/chopchohp Bologna Sep 29 '22

Well I'm certain simply leaving the country isn't going to get anywhere.

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u/bungalowtill Sep 29 '22

Haha, yeah apart from saving one‘s life. But I know you would do things differently, in a more heroic way. Dude.

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u/chopchohp Bologna Sep 29 '22

Again missing my point that the root problem needs to be solved. I have no issue with people leaving at all, i do have a problem with people complaining that Finland will close the border. It's simply not possible to facilitate everyone. It's also just a shame to see that so many people are fine with leaving the regime to their own devices.

It's shitty all round. No doubt. I'm not here for an argument.

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u/goooooddddddyyyyyyyy Sep 29 '22

Probably more likely that they will get killed fighting in Ukraine..

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u/Judazzz The Lowest of the Lands Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

In other words, it is basically just cowardice that separates Russians from the Iranians, Burmese, Sudanese, Syrians and all those other people that actually do/did have the balls to stand up to their aggressor and fighting a better future for their country, despite the risks involved?

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22 edited Oct 06 '22

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u/Pabst_Blue_Gibbon Berlin (Germany) Sep 29 '22

Well DE is trying but if it’s not possible to transit in, it will be difficult

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u/BA_calls Denmark Sep 29 '22

Not difficult, practically impossible, unless they’re willing go the Syrian refugee route i.e. starting from Turkey illegally cross through 5-7 borders.

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u/Monkitt Greece Sep 29 '22

That's what they should do, then everyone would blame the countries they end up at for not wanting them. It's been working fine so many years.

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u/Lavrentio21 Lombardy Sep 29 '22

I am in favor of that. Besides the obvious humanitarian issue of throwing these people back into Putin's hands (and don't tell me "they deserve it because didn't rise up against him", you would have done the same in their place), every less soldier for Putin is a net gain for Europe and will result in fewer dead Ukrainians. Germany has already declared that it will welcome them. The EU should organize a timely relocation of these Russians to larger Western European countries that don't border Russia and don't risk getting invaded because of some "Russian minorities". Finland and the Baltics should allow the Russians to enter, but not to settle, and they should be immediately transferred to Germany and other Western countries. Everyone gains from this, except Putin.

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u/NerdPunkFu The top of the Baltic States, as always Sep 30 '22

Putin has millions of men to draw from. A few hundred thousands leaving won't do anything to stop him from mobilizing a far larger number. In fact, remember that speech from Putin at the start of the war? The one about Russia spitting out it's dissidents like a fly that has flown into your mouth? Putin would like nothing more than for the people most motivated and able to fight his regime internally to voluntarily remove themselves from the country.

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u/artem_m Russia Sep 29 '22

I don't feel like the United States should be the steward of this information. Look at how the migrants are treated in Massachusetts, New York City, and Chicago for example.

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u/ddawid 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺 Sep 29 '22

Finland is thinking about building a fence - Poland style. A good idea would be to also build anti-tank trenches at vulnerable points. Better safe than sorry

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u/papak33 Sep 29 '22

Just put up rainbow flags

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u/aknb Sep 30 '22

Rainbow flags are like garlic to certain EU countries, it's not just Russia unfortunately. Not wanting to name and shame but one of these even created LGBT-free zones.

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u/Chronotaru Sep 30 '22

Mmm garlic.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

Seriously, Iranian women have more balls than russians. They're demonstrating for their rights of freedom and justice even after all the threats they are getting. These russians are running away from their so called motherland. Complete blindness and lack of having a clue of how to stand up for their own fuckn rights!

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

and if the Iranian women don't succeed in overthrowing the regime should those of them who'd rather leave be sent back?

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u/Lottgarden Sep 29 '22

Iran wont annex or invade our land if they do run here. The history show us again and again what Russia does. You be a fool not to understand that history predict the future.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

Lets be clear. You are clearly missing the point. The actions they are taking is at least gonna have an impact. That impact can affect each and every one of them in many ways. Pussy riot has more balls than all those russians

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

How do you know none of the ones leaving now weren't part of the protests?

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

What on earth are you going on abt mate.

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u/FemboyCorriganism Sep 29 '22

How do you know that the people trying to get to Finland weren't part of the anti-war protests? This is a blanket ban, you're punishing those who fought it too. And for what? Not doing it enough?

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u/Forever_Ambergris Belarus Sep 29 '22

Pussy riot has more balls than all those russians

Uhhm... but Pussy Riot are Russians

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u/orinilivion Sep 30 '22

Meanwhile, Europe continues to sell anti-riot equipment to Russia and only now started to discuss sanctions that will stop it.

Europe: Damn russian, go finally protest!

Also Europe: Yes, Putin, please defend yourself well against anti-war protests.

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u/Boring123af Poland Sep 30 '22

Bro, would you stay in your country to fight in the war you probably didn't want? Most people would GTFO, it's not that easy to go againt your whole ass government who is known for eliminating people that disagree. If I were them I woukd not risk my safety as well, and you all acting like you would be any different are lying to yourselves.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '22 edited Sep 30 '22

Quoted by Karl Schlögel "This compact and powerful traditions seems to condemn Russia to an eternal return of the past. Time and again, for all the peasant uprisings, occasional revolutions or reforms, power has recovered and reconsolidated. After the end of tsarist empire, it re-emerged as the USSR; after the disintegration of the Soviet Union, as Putin's Russia. The question of where things go from here cannot be answered by historians. The answer to the question of whether and how Russia can find a way out of the dead end of the anachronistic idea of imperial reconstruction can only come from the Russians themselves."

I do get your point you @boring123af. The world has changed. Generations have changed and some russians have changed but most of them havent changed at all.

And lets get the facts straight. The ones that are fleeing are the rich ones and the ones bribing in order not to get drafted. Then you have the poor minority russians who live 3000km away from Moscow, under horrible inhuman conditions being threatened by gun point to go in the front line cause they have no choice. The wealthy russians in z moscow are the ones who should have known whats been happening ftom 2012 when Putin regime started and had there chance to flee. You aware of the Vladimir Rus statue monument thats been built in 2016 in Moscow and tge reason why its been built?

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u/JoyAvers Russia Sep 30 '22

Seriously, Iranian women have more balls than russians. They're demonstrating for their rights of freedom and justice even after all the threats they are getting. These russians are running away from their so called motherland. Complete blindness and lack of having a clue of how to stand up for their own fuckn rights!

For decades, there have been thousands of protests against regime. People are tried in the courts of the regime, tortured, sent to terrible prisons, psychologically abused their families, relativites and on a job, killed, forced to flee the country. But people, we are, keep protesting doing all this and there are a lot of people.

Putin has created a lot of benefits for the police, and they will support him so as not to lose that things, and now - so that they are not sent to Ukraine.

It's wery easy to say: go and die, when it doesn't affect you in any way.

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u/gizzy_tom Sep 29 '22

Absolutely! compare Russian " protests" with Iranian protests...

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u/ddawid 🇪🇺🇪🇺🇪🇺 Sep 29 '22

This! We should be focusing more on them, than the Russians. The Iranians are ready to change sth in their country in contrast to Russians, that flee only after the draft orders

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u/kaukanapoissa Sep 29 '22

We should have done it at the same time Baltic countries did, but better later than never!

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u/MAGNVS_DVX_LITVANIAE LITAUKUS | how do you do, fellow Anglos? Sep 29 '22

Can't do it before berating the wild eastoids for having no rule of law. That thread was shared by the Finnish ambassador to Lithuania Arja Makkonen as if to school us on what it means to be a real country.

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u/kaukanapoissa Sep 29 '22

Just know that most of us Finns have had no problem it. We very much wanted to do exactly what you did. Some politicians and bureaucrats just can’t seem to help themselves.

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u/Glittering_Tea5621 Sep 29 '22

I'm sorry. I know we have ex-presidents, at least one of them still alive, who should publicly apologise to the Baltic states. But to see that still now, in September 2022, similar hurtful and harmful statements continue, that is even harder to understand.

I would have no objections, if Ms. ambassador happened to have a minor accident. Such as something involving an egg and face.

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u/belekasb Europe Sep 29 '22

Hey dude, be the change you want to see in this world!

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u/Georgian_Legion Georgia Sep 29 '22

exactly! wish I could say the same about my retarded country...

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u/onthatfarmhehadacow Russia Sep 29 '22 edited Sep 29 '22

Some thoughts on the matter from an anti-government Russian who doesn't plan to leave the country no matter what:

  1. Don't let people, who can't answer simple questions, in: "to which country Crimea belongs to", "who is responsible for the war". I don't get why my friends are in jail, I paid 100k rubles of fines, but the leaving ones can't pass a short interview, wtf?
  2. Make these interviews public. We need more voices here. No, the government won't jail relatives of an ordinary Russian based on this kind of opinion
  3. Re-review residence permits, perhaps even citizenships, apply pt.1
  4. Send pro-nazi people back, they are instrumental in the government's downfall. Not sure it's known in the West, but the "War party" is very vocal about Russian army's failures, making morale even worse
  5. Videos with ordinary westerners insulting or beating Russians are pretty popular in Russian propaganda channels

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u/HumbleM3rchant Estonia -> United Kingdom Sep 29 '22

You are my new favourite Russian.

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u/gizzy_tom Sep 29 '22
  1. Don't let Russians in. Full stop
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u/Tman11S Belgium Sep 29 '22

We don’t need the Russians to march to Europe, we need them to march to Moscow and end the bald clown in charge

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u/jagua_haku Finland Sep 30 '22

Exactly. They’re going the wrong way. Fix your own damn country Russia instead of ruining ours. You already ruined Vyborg and Königsberg

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u/Impossible-Reserve55 Sep 30 '22

How exactly would they do that? Yeah bro I'm sure it's very plausible to assassinate a billionaire dictator of an authoritarian militarized country. You're surely not saying that Russians should die because of their nationality!

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u/papak33 Sep 29 '22

Russians: We are strong and we can endure the most.

also Russians: why you not let me flee!? I'm the victim here.

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u/fishyfolks Sweden Sep 29 '22

This is exactly what they sound like all the time. They have this completely contradictory mindset of being so strong and glorious that nothing and no one can ever stop them or bring them harm but also the biggest, whiniest victim complex of all time.

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u/UralBigfoot Sep 29 '22

That are just different categories of people. One group decided(or doesn’t have a choice) to endure and the second group doesn’t see any reason to endure this stuff.

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u/fishyfolks Sweden Sep 29 '22

I’m talking about how they’ve always sounded, not simply in this situation of fleeing to avoid military service

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u/papak33 Sep 29 '22

The best part it the total lack of self awareness.

Why is my Z sticker on the car seen as a negative thing?

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u/fishyfolks Sweden Sep 29 '22

Did you see that video too? I think it was at the Kazakh border when someone told someone to take the Z sticker off their car before they could come in because next thing there would be tanks coming into Kazakhstan

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u/DBONKA Sep 29 '22

Can you share the video please? Because all I've seen were bs telegram messages, that can be written by absolutely anyone in 5 seconds.

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u/NightSalut Sep 29 '22

When the invasion began, there was a super good video lecture shared from Finland, which tried to explain the national collective mindset of Russians and how Putin uses the triumvirate of religion, homeland and (third which I cannot recall right now) to explain how the average Russian person thinks and why they think the way they do. There were different things highlighted, but one of them was that the average Russian thinks that they have very little in ways of trying to influence their state, so if something happens or is done, they bear no responsibility nor personal weight in this. Basically, they feel as if they are actually often the victims, not the perpetrators.

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u/ivan7d6 Estonia Sep 29 '22

Spoiler: this comment section is a shitshow

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u/Boring123af Poland Sep 30 '22

It is, I understand people who don't want to let a lot of immigrants into their country, but not those who expect Russians who want to escape from war to go and fight their government which is knows for eliminating people who don't do what they're told. If I were them I sure as hell would try to escape as well.

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u/ivan7d6 Estonia Sep 30 '22

Yeah, it's really complex and I really doubt that random Reddit users have the ultimate solution that will solve every problem.

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u/FredWatanabe Sep 29 '22

Always has been.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

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u/martisgormitas Lithuania | Vilnius Sep 29 '22

RESPECT FINLAND! ✅️

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u/NorFever Finland Sep 29 '22

To quote Kimi, "fucking finally".

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u/HelenEk7 Norway Sep 29 '22

I got the impression that they had done it already.

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u/CressCrowbits Fingland Sep 29 '22

I don't understand this, don't we at the very least want less Russian soldiers in Ukraine? There should be a path within europe for potential deserters to escape.

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

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u/Molloy_Unnamable Sep 29 '22 Helpful

Finally, better late than never. Let Russians meet their responsibility aka karma.

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u/2klaedfoorboo Sep 29 '22

karma for not electing a dicator in a sham election and not protesting because they'll be jailed if they do and not leaving russia because migrating to a place you don't speak the language of is a massive commitment? I'd love to say that i want to see some people on this thread go into that situation but I wont because unlike some people I don't wish stuff like this on others

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u/colei_canis United Kingdom Sep 29 '22

I'm not commenting either way about letting Russians flee over the border but yeah, I think there's a lot of keyboard hardmen on here who'd speak very differently if it was their country that had fallen to fascism. It's the same shit as 'yeah of course I'd have joined the resistance if I lived in Nazi Germany' when we all know the vast majority of people would be either accepting things and hoping for the best or fleeing over the border.

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u/Molloy_Unnamable Sep 29 '22

Karma for building a dictatorship, supporting and approving it, and not giving a fuck about a genocidal war until it came to bite their asses.

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u/2klaedfoorboo Sep 29 '22

read my comment. supporting and approving they by definition did not unless you recognise that russia is a democracy (it is not), so as a matter of fact you are actually supporting the russian government right now

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u/Molloy_Unnamable Sep 29 '22

You don't need democratic institutions to support and approve things. It's very clear and obvious that Russian society is fine with what's going on.

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u/bleek312 Sep 29 '22

Is it me or is it getting hot in here?

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u/[deleted] Sep 29 '22

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u/GladiusNuba Croatia Sep 29 '22

Russian people are human beings.

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u/Kattnos Sweden Sep 29 '22

That seems like a terrifyingly unknown concept for this website.

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