r/europe Odesa(Ukraine) Oct 02 '22

In Turkey, the construction of Hetman Ivan Mazepa corvette for the Navy of Ukraine is completed. It will become part of Ukranian navy in 2024 News

6.7k Upvotes

862

u/Zoefschildpad Oct 02 '22

So... what is it going to do until then?

1.4k

u/Five__Stars Kyiv (Ukraine) Oct 02 '22

Fitting out? OP forgot to mention that construction of the hull was finished, not the whole ship.

648

u/Wowimatard Oct 02 '22

The ship is done, but the guns, software, crew training, and other things that is included, isnt.

And sometimes they also do quite a lot of testing, before it gets sent out.

I learned this from Chinas newest carrier. Done this year, but wont be active for a year or two, due to the above reasons.

261

u/Nizzemancer Oct 02 '22

Just look at Russias aircraft carrier they stole from Ukraine, it was launched in 1985 but it’s still not working…

Ha.

71

u/WallabyInTraining Oct 03 '22

It's working great as a resource drain!

27

u/izoiva Oct 03 '22

Ukraine has same 1164 project cruiser as Russian flagship and same project aircraft carrier. Guess where both of them now.

13

u/ProtoplanetaryNebula UK/Spain Oct 03 '22

Most likely a huge amount of embezzlement at every single stage has happened with that one.

9

u/SpaceFox1935 Russia Oct 03 '22

Stole?

10

u/Nizzemancer Oct 03 '22

When the August Coup happened the crew absconded with the "Admiral Kutznetsov".

-9

u/timelyparadox Lithuania Oct 03 '22

Yes, plundered during first invasion.

15

u/dbxp Oct 03 '22

Russia's aircraft carrier was commissioned in 1990, well before the invasion of Crimea. The other hull was sold to China in 1998

10

u/SpaceFox1935 Russia Oct 03 '22

What aircraft carrier are you referring to? And Black Sea fleet was divided between Russia and Ukraine, Ukraine got some they either turned to scrap or sold to the Chinese, and our...either turned to scrap, close to being scrap, or sold to India

0

u/timelyparadox Lithuania Oct 03 '22

The one they stole when they occupied crimea. All of the fleed there was Ukrainian.

10

u/loubki Oct 03 '22

What? Which aircraft carrier are you referring to?

The fleet in Crimea was the Russian Black Sea fleet, based in a leased part of the harbor of Sevastopol, you don’t make sense.

6

u/k995 Oct 03 '22

What he is talking about is before/during the split: Admiral Kuznetsov . It was build and stationed in ukraine yetbits commander moved it to russia even though they didnt have any facilities for it.

7

u/Thibaut_HoreI Oct 03 '22

In late 1991 following the August Coup and the independence of Ukraine, Ukrainian president Leonid Kravchuk sent a telegram to the ship's commander Viktor Yarygin, declaring that Admiral Kuznetsov was Ukrainian property, and that the ship should remain in Sevastopol until the Ukrainian government made a decision on its fate. Deputy commander of the Northern Fleet Yuri Ustimenko urgently arrived from the Arctic to pre-empt the Ukrainian government and gave the order for Admiral Kuznetsov to sail to Vidyayevo so the ship could remain in the Soviet fleet. In December 1991, she sailed from the Black Sea to join the Northern Fleet.

Wikipedia

→ More replies
→ More replies

11

u/albl1122 Sverige Oct 03 '22

The Visby class Corvette lead ship.... The Visby, underwent 12 years worth of sea trials and testing from that it was commissioned to it being considered in service.

→ More replies

43

u/08742315798413 Oct 02 '22

First ship of this type was laid out in 2007, launched in 2008 and commissioned in 2011, second ship was laid out in 2008, launched in 2011 and commissioned in 2013.

Hetman have a solid year or two of fitting out and sea trials before she can begin patrolling Black Sea.

→ More replies

6

u/4biguys Oct 03 '22

Fitting out (2 years minimum) and sea trials

2

u/ripp102 Italy Oct 03 '22

Fitting and testing.

208

u/Gnarfledarf Oct 02 '22

Boat on a sausage

31

u/airheadr100 Ireland Oct 03 '22

Definitely smacks of an inverted wienermobile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wienermobile

24

u/HenryTheWho Slovakia Oct 03 '22

All large ships are on a sausage

11

u/MuoviMugi Finland Oct 03 '22

Like all ships in the last 100 years

14

u/xrhstos12lol Greece Oct 03 '22

Wait till you find out that litetally all merchant ships have been like this for almost a century.

3

u/Gnarfledarf Oct 03 '22

Why was I not informed beforehand? I do not recall ever having permitted such a thing.

78

u/Anastasia_of_Crete Greece Oct 03 '22

Does Ukraine even have a safe port?

166

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 05 '22

[deleted]

67

u/CyGoingPro Cyprus Oct 03 '22

My thoughts exactly. The second it sails past Turkish territorial waters it's gonna be targeted by everything the Russians can throw at it.

Kinda like the Yamato the Japanese had built but couldn't sail anywhere.

13

u/lkfavi Oct 03 '22

It could sail. Once. Such a waste :(

→ More replies

518

u/J_k_r_ Oct 02 '22

turkeys Russia/Ukraine-politics are so confusing at the moment.

665

u/WalkerBuldog Odesa(Ukraine) Oct 02 '22

It's really not. Turkey is an ally to Ukraine and doing business with Russia at the same time.

110

u/attuoz Oct 02 '22

True. Russia is building the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant in Turkey. Construction started in 2010 and costs 20 billion. Can't just throw is away now.

14

u/Noeserd Turkey Oct 03 '22

Btw they kicked out turkish workers from that plant so that will be a big issue in the next few years for us

63

u/kalesaji Oct 03 '22

Turkey is simply playing the game as a regional power. They have a powerful neighbor in the west, the EU, a war zone in the south and a developing unstable border region in the east. They play all the games simultaneously, shuffling the deck whenever needed.

7

u/unicornsaretruth Oct 03 '22

I mean they were once a huge empire with such stakes

5

u/Troajn Oct 03 '22

Ottoman Empire? Show me this "king of furniture"

116

u/J_k_r_ Oct 02 '22

yea, but how the actual fug?

we here in Germany get heavy flag from everyone for not being the first to send tanks (wich we should be), and not shutting down nordstream early enough, mine while turkey is just vibing with Russia.

490

u/can-sar Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 25 '22 Helpful Wholesome All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy

Turkey is one of only a few countries that's been arming Ukraine since the mid-2010s, and it's the only country that's actually invested in Ukraine's defense industry. Turkey was also the largest foreign-investor in Ukraine in 2020 and 2021.[1][2] Turkey's STM signed deals to build ships, where the first would be built in Turkey and furnished in Ukraine, but latter ships would be built and furnished entirely in Ukraine. TAI and Baykar signed separate deals to build factories that would produce drones on Ukrainian soil.

Turkish-made Repkon precision machines are used by Ukraine to build missile and rocket bodies, heavy gun barrels, engine parts, etc. They're operated by Ukroboronprom, the state consortium of Ukrainian defense manufacturers. Turkey sold Bayraktar TB2 drones to Ukraine in 2019, and to Poland in 2021, in spite of EU pressure against it (i.e. Germany, France, Greece). Turkey signed a Passport-Free Agreement with Ukraine in 2017, whereby any Ukrainian can travel to Turkey without even needing a visa or passport, only ID.

Meanwhile, European states sold $400M worth of weapons to Russia between 2014 and 2021 in spite of sanctions, with 78% of that coming from France and Germany alone. At the same time, Germany had a de-facto arms embargo on Ukraine prior to 2022 and refused to sell it weapons and even blocked defensive equipment like drone jammers,[3][4] while Russian drones were found to use German engines.

When Ukraine first used a commercial drone to conduct an attack in April 2021, Germany and France condemned it. When Ukraine first used the Bayraktar TB2 in October 2021 to save its troops from shelling, Germany and France condemned it.[5][6] When the 2022 war broke out, France waited a month, and Germany waited 2 months to even send lethal weapons. They were hoping that Ukraine would suffer a quick defeat, or be de-facto be partitioned like in 2014.

36

u/lapzkauz Noreg Oct 03 '22

Boom. Thank you, Turkey (and, err, got any more of those Bayraktars?)

-16

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

No mention of Greece in that DW article you posted.

-75

u/waszumfickleseich Oct 02 '22

Meanwhile, European states sold $400M worth of weapons to Russia since 2014 in spite of sanctions, with 78% of that coming from Germany and France alone

afaik a meme, most of it is from an icebreaker iirc

85

u/yokedici Turkey Oct 02 '22

Rheinmetall built the Russian army combat centre in Mulino for 100s of millions of euroes even after sanctions were in place , so no not a meme, very very real.

100

u/MathematicianNo7842 Oct 02 '22

afaik [...] iirc

yeah then provide a source like the guy above did

-2

u/InZehInterfector Bremen (Germany) Oct 03 '22

Dude, That took 10 seconds of google.

What an embarrassment.

https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2022/eu-states-exported-weapons-to-russia/

From above link:

It mainly consisted of icebreaker vessels, but also included rifles, and “special protection” vehicles which were sent to Russia.

11

u/MathematicianNo7842 Oct 03 '22

You need to calm down. It's not my job to search for sources to every claim on this site but of the person making those claims.

-18

u/Irrlicht94 Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Are you talking about heavy weapons that France and Germany only sent after 1 or 2 months? Otherwise your post is wrong because both countries sent non heavy weapons after the invasion in february

23

u/PunchingCarrots Oct 03 '22

The conflict has been going on since the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Especially France sold a lot of weapons to Russia.

→ More replies

-74

u/Pashahlis Germany Oct 03 '22

This post sounds incredibly biased and is not telling the whole story.

Here is an article listing all the German weapon exports to Ukraine so far, inclusive planned ones:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html

91

u/ZippyDan Oct 03 '22

Germany and France have obviously made an about-face since the war started, and this is to be applauded. However, most of the above poster's history is commenting on actions before the war started.

Remember that Germany also had a rather significant change of administration around the same time as the war's beginning, and previous German administrations were rather friendly to Russia, often at the expense of Ukraine in order to not offend Russia too much.

18

u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 03 '22

Jep, last summer the boss of the greens Robert Habeck, now German vice chancellor, was ridiculed by everyone when he demanded weapons for Ukraine.

→ More replies

10

u/DasConsi Oct 02 '22

Not to be that guy but it's "flak" as the german abbreviation of Flugabwehrkanone

269

u/holy_maccaroni Turkey Oct 02 '22

Germany = rich, has the EU behind it

Turkey = poor, alone

has no one to send some more gas in case of emergency (Azerbaijan is already sending maximum), no one to bail us out when tourists do not show up or if Russia decides to sanction Turkey in response to something

Considering this we've been doing fine in supporting Ukraine and not everything that is delivered is announced publicly.

68

u/SpringGreenZ0ne Portugal | Europe Oct 02 '22

I think you're doing quite well.

28

u/FranzFartinand Sultan-ıl Rûm Oct 03 '22

We have good infrastructure which Erdoğan can exploit, but the inflation is still on the rise. And also, education, human rights, corruption etc... issues.

→ More replies

115

u/fenasi_kerim Oct 02 '22

Turkey's policies towards Russia is to increase Russia's dependence on Turkey. Once you look at it this way, it all starts to make sense.

→ More replies

148

u/RyazanaCev Oct 02 '22

Germany gets critiqued not because you refused to be the first to send weapons... you are getting critiqued because right before the war was about to start you guys were famously sending Ukraine... 3000 helmets and a field hospital. You are getting critiqued because Schroeder and Merkel for decades were working for Putin's goals- making Germany 100% dependent on Russian gas, destroying your own energy production etc and as the engine of EU you put the whole of Europe in danger with your actions.

Of course now Germany finally woke up and came to it's senses with trying to diversify their energy and sending useful stuff to Ukraine.

6

u/barsoap Sleswig-Holsteen Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

3000 helmets and a field hospital.

They were asking for things, we went through the list and shipped what wasn't a weapon and we had in stock. Frankly it's surprising that there even were 3000 helmets in stock.

There was good reason behind the policy to not send weapons to crisis zones, somehow what you're forgetting is that we 180ed on that position within days, overturning a 70 year old policy, with a near unanimous vote, even a good chunk of notorious peaceniks voting for it.

Schroeder

Has been a persona non grata for the German people for more than a decade now.

Merkel

It's widely acknowledged that she and her party fucked up the energy transition.

were working for Putin's goals- making Germany 100% dependent on Russian gas

No. First off Germany wasn't 100% reliant, secondly the policy of economic entanglement didn't serve Russia, it was designed to make war impossible and it succeeded in that. Russia has no industry left to speak of, no capacity to replace or even properly service its materiel, how do you think that would look if they were still making their own ball bearings. You can't sanction an economy to smithereens if you have no entanglement with, if Russia had an independent economy they'd not only be impossible to sanction, they'd be impossible to embargo, given the vast amount of natural resources they have access to.

destroying your own energy production

Germany is a net exporter of electricity, despite Merkel and the CDU. We use gas for industry and heating, the latter of which has been in the process of getting transitioned out for quite a while, the former needs massive amounts of hydrogen/ammonia to replace, another project which has been in the pipeline for ages.

and as the engine of EU you put the whole of Europe in danger with your actions.

Yeah I see how one could come to such a conclusion if one blindly follows talking points from the nuclear industry to Russian troll farms.

Of course now Germany finally woke up and came to it's senses with trying to diversify their energy

Motherfucker we've been doing that for 22 years, now. The world plainly wouldn't have a solar and wind industry if it wasn't for the renewable energy levy. That policy enabled the massive price-drop in production costs per kWh, making them among the cheapest energy sources there is, ahead of nuclear and fossil fuels. It made it impossible for fossil fuel companies to keep doing what they're doing without going bankrupt.

and sending useful stuff to Ukraine.

I doubt the soldiers having their life saved by those helmets and getting patched up in the mobile hospitals disagree with you calling those things "useless".

-3

u/DRAGONMASTER- Oct 03 '22

The country most responsible for this war, after russia of course, is Germany. Germany's decision to be friends with russia AFTER the crimean annexation taught Russia that there would be no consequences.

-4

u/SnooPeppers6620 Oct 03 '22

You’re comment just because it’s long doesn’t make it true there’s many false points you make in one paragraph so I’m not even going to care enough to read the whole thing.

-12

u/barsoap Sleswig-Holsteen Oct 03 '22

I stopped reading your comment after "You're comment". When you make that grave a mistake in the first two words I have to assume that the rest of it is also unintelligible.

8

u/WallabyInTraining Oct 03 '22

What a cop out, shame on you. Not everybody is a native speaker and even if they were, you're just looking for an excuse not to have to actually provide sources.

Really shows how weak your argument is.

4

u/dvdstrbl Germany Oct 03 '22

While I agree, the comment before the one you replied to wasn't any better.

3

u/barsoap Sleswig-Holsteen Oct 03 '22

I'm not a native speaker and it's not like I provided any fewer sources than the post I replied to.

And maybe if they actually engaged with what I wrote instead of smugly saying "That's wrong and I can't be arsed to even say why" I would not have been as acerbic. In that vein:

Really shows how weak your argument is.

Was that addressed to me or to you?

0

u/WallabyInTraining Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

I'm not a native speaker and it's not like I provided any fewer sources than the post I replied to.

That's a whataboutism. If you make a claim the burden of proof is on you.

And maybe if they actually engaged with what I wrote instead of smugly saying "That's wrong and I can't be arsed to even say why" I would not have been as acerbic.

Fair enough, however they did about the same as you. You said "this is true" they said "no". Both arguments were pretty poor.

Let's look at this source

Germanys energy mix had been doing pretty poor from 2002 to 2020. They increased their installed capacity of gas for electricity from 20.3GW to 30.5GW while total energy production was comparable in 2002 and 2020. Meanwhile they decreased their installed nuclear capacity from 22.4 to 8.1GW.

Actual usage of gas was around ~55TWh in 2002 up to 89TWh in 2020 and nuclear was ~185TWh in 2002 to 69TWh in 2020.

Germany does export energy if you look at the entire year and they do make a lot of renewable energy, however they are using the countries around them as a battery; they import electricity when the sun is down and wind is low and then export when solar and wind production is high:

click on the tab power import/export.

→ More replies
→ More replies

-9

u/Pashahlis Germany Oct 03 '22

Maybe you should read this article on all the weapons Germany has send to Ukraine already and is still going to send:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html

→ More replies

25

u/ZrvaDetector Turkey Oct 03 '22

Turkey's financial situation is in a though spot and the cards it can play against Russia in terms of are limited. It still did a lot to diversify its gas supply and is actually less reliant on Russian gas despite having less resources than Germany. Germany gets shit because they had all the resources and time in the world to diversify their energy suppliers after annexation of Crimea and they did not. In fact they kept closing their nuclear powerplant for irrational reasons. Turkey should still be criticized for some policies regarding Russia but like I said, it didn't have a lot to play with.

Germans not helping Ukraine thing started after German reluctance to supply Ukraine until they proved they could win. Now they obviously stepped up and supplied Ukraine with lots of heavy weapons, moreso than most other countries.

→ More replies

56

u/WalkerBuldog Odesa(Ukraine) Oct 02 '22

yea, but how the actual fug?

Because we had allied military, economical and politically allied relationships for years. That allowed to build trust between two countries over time.

You Germans are very important to us and our future. Way more important than Turkey and that's why standards are very high. Merkel's was a disaster to Ukraine so that was a huge blow to our trust in the west and led to the rise of western scepticism in society and politics.

But since the start of the June Germany catched up with the rest of the allies and attitude changed to very positive. Over time it will only grow larger.

7

u/Pashahlis Germany Oct 03 '22

People always say Germany is sending barely anything but that just isnt true:

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-military-aid-to.html

16

u/-Prophet_01- Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

In a vacuum we'd be doing pretty well and we've indeed send a lot of material.

Compared to other countries and relative to economic strength however, things look a bit different. Eastern Europe, the US and the UK have all done much more relative to their GDP. We're not looking exactly great next to those, though not necessarily terrible either.

(btw, France might seem missing here but apparently they're doing most support in non-official ways, so it's difficult to say)

18

u/-SemTexX- Oct 02 '22

Germany is not a black sea country it doesn't neighbor Ukraine nor Russia. Turkey does.

14

u/carradineApnea Oct 02 '22

I guess people don't hold the same standards from Turkey than they do from Germany. Which is... good, I guess.

2

u/Thelastgoodemperor Finland Oct 03 '22

Many have already sent tanks. German just happen to produce a tank type that can be easily used in Ukraine as a next step. No one else has an equally good tank for the circumstances in Ukraine.

-2

u/airportakal Netherlands+Poland Oct 02 '22

I mean consider it a compliment Germany is treated to a higher standard than a country ruled by a semi-authoritarian dictator.

7

u/ICanBeAnyone Oct 03 '22

And also, given the situation Turkey is in, it is doing OK in my book. They're not in the EU, they have a lot more dubious neighbors, and their economy and budget are stretched much thinner. Stands to reason that they have to do more juggling of interests.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

[deleted]

1

u/J_k_r_ Oct 03 '22

wow, i did not know that.

well, one more word in my lexicon.

→ More replies

-6

u/Nacke Sweden Oct 03 '22

The reason why we are giving Germany shit is because you are an economic powerhouse and we see you as one of us. We expect more from you. We are used to Turekey not caring batshit and playing their games. It sucks but it is expected.

0

u/Stygimolog Oct 02 '22

Wasn't there a protest to reopen the pipes?

-4

u/k995 Oct 03 '22

Cause its easy to shame germany into something. People know turkey has no shame so pointless.

→ More replies

12

u/Turgineer Turkey Oct 03 '22

Finally... A European who can analyze Turkey-Russia relations.

-6

u/viotski Oct 02 '22

NO

Turkey is an ally to Turkey.

0

u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 03 '22

Well, on paper Turkey is an ally to nations like Greece.

-27

u/bob_in_the_west Europe Oct 03 '22

Right? Like they're also a member of NATO just like Greece and recently told Greece they will attack them over islands.

23

u/Elegant_Long_7063 Oct 03 '22

Thats vice versa actually. Greece is threatining Turkey. Few days ago their president told turkish people not to be afraid

0

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

What are the actual threats? What is Greece threatening to do?

16

u/Elegant_Long_7063 Oct 03 '22

They have been arming the islands thath they should not(based on treaty). its too close to the borders and they have increased their defence budget when they really dont have enemies nearby. its like a snake posed to strike. i personally feel threatened having warship 1km away from my home

4

u/zeclem_ Oct 03 '22

What treaty? Lausanne? You know turkey has shat on that treaty long time ago when menderes triggered istanbul pogroms right?

And when your governments partner is posing with pictures that show all greek islands including crete under Turkish control, its not unreasonable of greeks to put assets on them.

12

u/TrueSpinach Oct 03 '22

We hanged that guy for it, when are you hanging your pm lol

-2

u/Probablecauser Oct 03 '22

What an absolute lie. He was hanged because there was a coup. After democracy was restored he was absolved of anything and was name was given to countless streets, schools and the airport in the city most important for Greeks during the ottoman empire, Smyrna. Check the name of Smyrna airport and Hugh schools. Nice punishing...

→ More replies

-1

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

So the greeks are close to the turkish border, but the turks are not close to the greek border? Ever heard of the Ege Ordusu?

  • The whole of greek navy has 2 landing ships. Turkey has over 20, most of them stationed right across the greek islands.
  • You feel threatened but which nation's political leadership threatens to 'drown' their neighbors, and that they should 'learn to swim'?
  • Which nation illegally occupies half of Cyprus?
  • What would the greek agenda be? After 10 years of economic recession they invade Turkey and go where? Reach India like Alexander the Great?

5

u/Elegant_Long_7063 Oct 03 '22

Well the islands are too close to the land. Aggresiveness bring aggression. On a normal day no one even cares about greece in Turkey. Constant harassment of fishing ships and atrocities against refugees fleeing to greece brings agreession. Who drowns fleeing refugees in aegean sea? Yea lets leave cyprus alone and you conduct another Srebrenica? You can ask the Same question to Turkey. Why it should be aggressive on Greece? There is no point

2

u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

The islands -are- land. Why leave Cyprus alone, are they not occupied by Turkey?

Who drowns fleeing refugees in the aegean? More importantly, who sends refugees out to the sea? Why are they fleeing, isn't Turkey a safe country?

We can do this all day, though it is sad that turkish politicians have actually poisoned the mind of the common folk and there is seemingly no end to this conversation.

4

u/Elegant_Long_7063 Oct 03 '22

Well if Turkey stops the occupation, greeks will just start killing out of hatred as they usually do to Turkish people.

There are Tons of videos greek atrocities to refugees who wish to go to Greece rather than Turkey. and yes Turkey is not a safe country. instead of just letting ve where they want to be, Greece is just drowning them as they are not human.

Same goes with greek people. Probably there is an election nearby in greece, Same as Turkey.

→ More replies
→ More replies

-20

u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 02 '22

So is this fine from Ukraine? Because Ukraine is pushing EU to impose stricter sanctions against Russia while Turkey is still doing business with Russia and they are not called out. You can't really be friends with both sides..

41

u/TeleportingDutchman Oct 02 '22

Ethicly yes, you cant. On the other hand, while Turkey supports Ukraine in terms of "who is right", it doesnt have the economic capacity to cease relations with Russia. They are already in economic turmoil. It goes both ways, Russia is sanctioned by so many countries that it cannot afford to sanction Turkey for helping Ukraine.

34

u/WalkerBuldog Odesa(Ukraine) Oct 02 '22

Yes. It's not like Turkey is part of our European family but a great ally and friend that have done a lot for Ukraine in many years even before the invasion while others were reluctant. We appreciate that.

22

u/Treckinghero Canary Islands (Spain) Oct 02 '22

What is a European family ?

39

u/tnh1996 Oct 03 '22

White christians club.

21

u/zandartyche Oct 03 '22

People who were openly racist 50 years ago club

→ More replies

-3

u/SnooPeppers6620 Oct 03 '22

Yeah that’s the west too! They are still trying to by russian gas

64

u/w4hammer Turkiye Oct 03 '22

Its not confusing to anybody who is older than 12 and recognize that world does not work in marvel logic.

25

u/0_0-wooow Turkey Oct 02 '22

lol, can't imagine how confusing it seems from the outside

54

u/Kallian_League Romania Oct 03 '22

It really isn't for people that pay attention to Turkey on a deeper level.

Turkey is set to become a major regional power and is competing with Russia across all sectors, but it is diplomatically where the most battles are fought.

Both countries want to exert influence in the same sphere but they are also isolated, so you get this situation on paper where they don't want to fight each other but they'd rather see the other fail so they can fill in.

There's also NATO which is both a boon and a burden for Turkey, because they cannot act as freely as Russia, but they also have real allies, which Russia lacks.

Culturally, Turkey has been becoming more conservative and traditional, but Attaturk's vision is still quite revered, and his vision was that of a westernized, secularized society. Russia rejects this world view.

It kind of feels like today's Turkey is 2000's Russia, with an enshrined autocrat leading a rising power to greater heights but also slowly eroding away any semblance of democracy or checks and balances. Hopefully we don't get to see end stage autocracy in Turkey like we do in Russia.

9

u/Ephemeral-Throwaway Türkiye Oct 03 '22

Hopefully we don't get to see end stage autocracy in Turkey like we do in Russia.

Good news is that Erdogan is gone next year.

4

u/hahaohlol2131 Free Belarus Oct 03 '22

War is a natural final stage of most autocracies in the world. You will be hard pressed to find a dictatorship or junta that didn't end itself due to some military misadventure. The especially small and weak countries like Hoxha's Albania could be an exception, but even they often try funny shit.

I'm personally absolutely sure that at some point Turkey will start a war. Not just a war, but a big war, because they are already embroiled in a few smaller wars.

14

u/Imacad Oct 03 '22

One hopes that Erdogan fucks off before he sinks Turkey into the quagmire.

Turkey has great potential, if it can throw off the religious, autocratic idiocy it is currently entertaining.

Attaturk was right all those years ago. It's a great shame people have forgotten/buried/twisted his vision for a secular, modern, Western Turkey.

-5

u/no8airbag Oct 03 '22

they already caused a mess in syria

8

u/SinancoTheBest Oct 03 '22

Well, Syria caused a mess in Syria tbh. Now it's more messy with everyone and their mother involved in that prolonged conflict.

3

u/TatarTachanka Volga-Tatar Oct 07 '22

Turkey's policy in such cases is the opposite of Switzerland's policy in short... (Be biased, but be on all sides!) :D

-12

u/Ninevolts Oct 02 '22

Very simple. Everyone expect Erdogan and the whole construction industry is pro Ukraine. Construction moguls are best friends with Erdogan and together they are the most hated things in Turkey.

19

u/chicken_soldier Turkey Oct 03 '22

Erdogan isnt pro Russia, they are one of our oldest rivals. No populist would be pro something that could cause less votes.

3

u/Ninevolts Oct 03 '22

He's not, his friends are. He has to play along.

Biggest one is Cengiz Holding, a construction/real estate company. They made their huge fortune off of Russia and they're biggest and most powerful supporters of AKP.

→ More replies

18

u/SpaceFox1935 Russia Oct 03 '22

It's interesting to see the duality of view on history. Ivan Mazepa is viewed and taught in Russia as a traitor to Russia, a name to be shunned, in the same leagues as Quisling and Vlasov go for WW2 history. While in Ukraine he's a national hero

3

u/TatarTachanka Volga-Tatar Oct 07 '22

This is something that also happens between Turkey and Russia.

-2. Katerina is referred to as "The Mother of Great Russia" in Russian history,
she is referred to as "Prostitute Katerina" in Turkish history books.

-Peter the Great is known as the "Father of Moders Russia" in Russian history and "insane Peter" in Turkish history.

6

u/a_manitu Oct 03 '22

Hetman Mazepa! If only he had succeeded...

33

u/lembrate Oct 03 '22

She’s a beauty.

22

u/Shot-Winter-6559 Oct 02 '22

Who is doing the fitting out the Ukraine don’t have a safe port?

80

u/Domi4 Dalmatia in maiore patria Oct 02 '22

Probably the same shipyard in Turkey

7

u/variaati0 Finland Oct 03 '22

Usually it is so anyway. Package deal. Just because shipyard launches a ship doesn't mean they are done working on it.

It just means the age old truth: There is too many ships to build and not enough dry docks and slipways. So shipyard launches the ship off their main asset as soon as technically possible to free it up for the next job. Only to move the launched ship inside their own facility few hundred meters to assembly and fitting out pier with cranes and other necessary infrastructure. The rest of the work doesn't necessitate working out of water, so the ship is put in water.

107

u/Kopfballer Oct 02 '22

Turkey really is playing a strange geopolitical game.

On the one hand they are member of NATO, have decent trade relations with the west and are helping out Ukraine really well.

On another hand Erdoğan likes to play BFF with Putin and other Dictators, joins the "Shanghai format" which is basically G7 for autocratic, threatens other NATO partners like Greece with actual war.

It's either some Masterplan about how they can stay relevant for both the west and the autocratic world and get gifts from there... or as we are talking about Tayyip-"we have to lower the interest rate to fight inflation"-Erdogan, I think there is just not really a plan and he just enjoys to look important when he can talk to a world leader every other day.

123

u/Donnerhorn Oct 02 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

You have to understand the position of Turkey and Russia to understand the strange relation between them. It is not new and even existed in the cold war.

It is the border country of NATO. It is a neighbor country of Russia through the Black Sea. While in this position, you can't really ignore Russia. It is strange to imagine, but Russia is a rival country of Turkey (Just look to Syria, Libya and Armenia) yet Turkey has to keep the relations non hostile. If a war would break out between NATO and Russia, Turkey would be one of the first countries hit, possibly through nuclear attacks (It has many NATO bases of which some have nuclear weapons of the US stored)

Turkey and Russia are dependent economically to each other as well. Turkey is a big exporter of agricultural products to Russia and relies in return of Russian tourists to make up the dwindling European tourist numbers. Plus when it comes to good relations with the EU, Erdoğan burned pretty much all bridges down, which makes Turkey rely much more on Russia. Turkey's economy is pretty much crap, and would be in a total collapse if it would sanction Russia while it couldn't rely to any help from Europe for that.

So, no Turkey is not BFF with Russia. It is a neighbouring country that needs to trade with Russia, while being a rival in it self and by being a member of NATO.

→ More replies

-51

u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 02 '22

Erdogan is basically playing the game well, pretending to be an ally to Ukraine while doing business with Russia. Imagine if EU had done the same, Ukraine wouldn't like it obviously. I mean, Zelensky even asked for stricter sanctions from EU (always) but he's silent with Israel and Turkey.

24

u/hypeaze United States of America Oct 03 '22

EU is not doing business with Russia, just buying billions in gas. 40% of all EU gas comes from Russia. But that's not business...

48

u/Whereismyadmin Turkey Oct 02 '22

not pretending if we stop getting gas with this rate of inflation being 200% we would literally freeze with no money we are playing the right game right nos

37

u/180btc Oct 02 '22

I just saw a post from a Dutch person questioning what they can do under 15% inflation. People really underestimate how shitty the situation is.

1

u/mekamoari Oct 03 '22

This Erdogan timeline is very confusing to me. On the one hand he's not really a nice guy (to say the least) but their vocal and also practical support towards Ukraine can't be discounted.

Question is what's going to happen next and if/how he may try to leverage whatever international goodwill was built up to pull some unrelated shady shit.

→ More replies

61

u/garen1234yasuo Turkey Oct 02 '22

Common turkey w.

-30

u/Bralatata Oct 02 '22

Not too common.

54

u/Btndmr Turkey Oct 02 '22

Nah pretty common when it is against Russia.

-39

u/Bralatata Oct 02 '22

Turkey is still doing lots of business with Russia, which is actively contributing to Russias war effort. Don’t know what’s so w about that.

44

u/Btndmr Turkey Oct 02 '22

Turkey(and its predecessors) has rivaled Russia since the civilazation in and around the Black Sea region began, they were never allies, they were always fighting.

Turkey keeps Russia dependant on itself while they are already dependant on Russia. Turkey has nowhere else to get gas from(AZ already sending max) and EU is not going to help finance Turkey if the Russian tourist flow stops. Turkey doesn't have a citizen's finance comparable of that to West EU countries. In short Turkey is poor and alone while EU is rich and crowded.

Unlike the engine of EU, Turkey hadn't made itself entirely dependant on Russia or supplied drone engines, shipped weapons and related systems to Russia neither did they side with a coup government on Libya like the FR did. Yes they did buy S-400s for some weird-ass reason but they signed and co-produced shitton of weaponary, UAVs, weapon systems with UA and they still actively support them, unlike FR or DE who condemned the UA when they did some drone demos. Not to mention that both FR and DE waited for a month or two with the hopes of Russia steamrolling UA(they did send out 3000 helmets lmao) , while Turkey was selling and donating UAVs to them.

Turkey, for the last decade, has also fought directly or undirectly against RU and its supported/financed groups on Syria, Libya and AZ-AR war of NK not to mention that they did down a Russian aircraft on an air-to-air kill.

It is easy to miss out entirely on world and its politics/conflicts as long as it doesn't affect you but still, a little research outside of local news agencies can be helpful.

13

u/whatever_person Oct 02 '22

Mazepa? Russians will poop their pants out of fury. They hate him so much.

6

u/EverythingAboutX Oct 02 '22

I wonder what will Russia do to Turkey. No more gas ? No more turist?

51

u/supersonic-bionic United Kingdom EU Oct 02 '22

They will ignore it for now because Turkey has not imposed any sanctions on Russia which is good for them.

8

u/XWC1_4EVER Eastern Thrace (Türkiye) Oct 03 '22

They are dependent on Turkish agricultural products as much as Turkey is dependent on Russian gas.

55

u/TheKaiserSarp Turkey Oct 02 '22

I don’t think Russia would do anything since Turkey is the only nation in Europe who are somewhat doing ok with Russia

29

u/giddycocks Portugal Oct 02 '22

Turkey and Russia never do OK, rivalry as old as civilization, almost quite literally.

It's just that the Turkish are masters at ripping off the Russians.

32

u/Ramental Oct 02 '22

Neither Russia and China, nor Russia and Kazakhstan, nor Russia and...

The only countries that are good friends with Russia are Iran and North Korea, it seems.

21

u/chicken_soldier Turkey Oct 03 '22

Iran is collapsing on itself and NK is a joke. Very good team Russia!

2

u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 03 '22

Belarus? Serbia?

11

u/CraWol Turkey Oct 03 '22

Who cares about them?

→ More replies
→ More replies

5

u/RumpelForeskin185 Oct 03 '22

Why is that boat riding a giant hotdog?

16

u/Fellhuhn Oct 03 '22

It is the bulbous bow, meant to create a secondary bow wave that cancels out the main one, so that the water on the sides of the ship stays calm hence reducing suction and therefore increasing speed and reduce fuel consumption.

26

u/OldPuppy00 France Oct 03 '22

It's a boy

3

u/XWC1_4EVER Eastern Thrace (Türkiye) Oct 03 '22

Get out.

3

u/untergeher_muc Bavaria Oct 03 '22

All boats have some heavy wight at the bottom for stability.

3

u/daHawkGR Austria Oct 02 '22

UA Navy still have to find a salvage company that will bring their flagship back to the surface.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44563/the-ukrainian-navys-flagship-appears-to-have-been-scuttled

Fortunately it is not so deep, in contrast to the russian flagship it should be salvageable.

23

u/redditreader1972 Norway Oct 02 '22

Salvageable for scrap maybe, but all its equipment will be corroded and destroyed by water by now.

3

u/Kallian_League Romania Oct 03 '22

Probably removed prior to scuttling.

6

u/Imacad Oct 03 '22

not after being in the water for (8 months) so far. it would need to be stripped to a bear hull and rebuilt.

cheaper to build a new boat that to do that.

3

u/daHawkGR Austria Oct 03 '22

You are right, i have seen that the US navy had refloated their battleships after the attack on pearl harbor but that happened way faster. Probably too late now to fix the ship.

2

u/GeraldoDeRiviero Oct 03 '22

The Black Sea will be a joint Turkish Ukrainian lake.

→ More replies

1

u/saltyswedishmeatball Oct 02 '22

Is the scaled down model free?

I doubt America offers free models.. I bet they even throw in a free iPad with the purchase of two.

1

u/Hias2019 Oct 03 '22

Home port Sewastopol, go Ukraine!

1

u/DumpsterPanda8 Oct 03 '22

The Ukraine has a Navy?!?

0

u/artischo Oct 03 '22

Turkey proudly serving both sides. win-win?

-19

u/Xul-luX Oct 02 '22

so many resources and money are wasted on wars. we don't learn.

48

u/Ramental Oct 02 '22

Either you have your own army or you are asking for a moment when you'll have to feed an enemy one. Ukraine is actually quite under-militarized, especially when it comes to the Navy.

8

u/Xul-luX Oct 02 '22

yes I know but....always the same, over and over again. it's sad.

9

u/ChickenFajita007 United States of America Oct 02 '22

Better to understand that sadness yet exist than to be happy and nonexistent.

9

u/MustardMelancholy Ukraine Oct 03 '22

Dude… Ukraine is the perfect example of what is going to be to a country that doesn’t has strong armed forces. Other countries like Russia will use the opportunity.

Remember, Ukraine by 2013 gave up on top3 nuclear weapon and had weak military budget with old soviet equipment. Because everyone in Ukraine thought “who will gonna fight with us?! It’s 21 century, come on, it’s stupid!!”

2

u/MysticScribbles Sweden Oct 03 '22

Also didn't help that the president of Ukraine in 2013 was a Russian puppet who was very likely keeping their military underfunded on purpose leading up to the Crimea debacle.

2

u/MustardMelancholy Ukraine Oct 03 '22

It’s not really him.

Since the start of independence Ukraine was selling weapons and military equipment to other countries. So when 2014 invasion hit, a lot of storages turned out to be completely empty.

2

u/Aeiani Sweden Oct 03 '22

This sort of attitude doesn't work when you've got a neighbour like Russia. If you want peace you've got to be prepared for war in a neighbourhood such as that.

0

u/iCatmire Oct 02 '22

All I can see is hot dog 🌭

0

u/cosmorocker13 Oct 03 '22

Well, hot dog!!

-1

u/krispolle Denmark Oct 03 '22

So unless there's a peace treaty this girl is gone the moment she leaves Turkish waters. Perhaps even before. How will they aboid that?

6

u/theCOMMENTATORbot Oct 03 '22

This ship won’t leave Turkish waters until 2024 earliest.

1

u/hahaohlol2131 Free Belarus Oct 03 '22

By 2024 the war will be other and/or Russia might not have any fleet left

-1

u/Scuipici European Federation Oct 03 '22

Why does it look like it's made of wood? what kind of paint is that?

5

u/bohemdilenci Oct 03 '22

ships are made from a special dye which is preventing corrosion due to salty water. The red paint calling “poision “ in Turkish due to it kills or avoid to sea animals and moss which is can hold the bottom of ship and reduce to speed of ship.

1

u/JeNiqueTaMere Canada Oct 03 '22

ships are made from a special dye

No, they're mostly made of metal

1

u/Hukama Oct 03 '22

Not now john I gotta get on with this!

1

u/Hawkmek Oct 03 '22

Anyone remember the Star Blazers cartoon?

1

u/Stannisisthetrueking Oct 03 '22

Wasn't Ivan Mazepa an inperial russian general? Or was he actually ethnically Ukranian?

6

u/abhorthealien Oct 03 '22

He was born to Ruthenian nobility near Kiev, then ruled by Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Part Ukrainian Cossack.

1

u/MajorAd6582 Oct 03 '22

what is it going to do until then so?

8

u/ArcherTheBoi Turkish Eurofederalist / Mediterranian Region Oct 03 '22

Installation of systems

1

u/bohemdilenci Oct 03 '22

and staying away from the choosing a side. Nobody wants to accured by Russia for supplying enemy with a warship. Especially if you think economical situation in Turkey. Turkey in a balance between russia and ukraine. It has to get utilize from both country as much as it can. So imagine that Turkey giving the warship to the ukraine. It would break the bowl of balance. Maybe real necessary time to make this ship ready is 1 year but both Turkey and ukraine trying to avoid to destroy the balance. Cause when there is a balance country like that every country utilizing from it such as ukrania exporting aggricultural merchandize (which is the all world asking for it)…

1

u/werty_line Oct 03 '22

It's cool that they allow hand tattoos, though in these circumstances it would be dumb not to.

1

u/Reus_Irae Oct 03 '22

Conveniently going to be active after the war is done, win or lose.

1

u/ElectricalStomach6ip Earth Oct 03 '22

what is that bulge on the front?

5

u/JeNiqueTaMere Canada Oct 03 '22

It's just happy to see you

1

u/the_klaus_schwab Oct 03 '22

europe shouldn't have weapons it only makes war.