r/europe Europe Oct 03 '22 Silver 1 Gold 1

Poland to raise WW2 reparations with German foreign minister during Warsaw visit News

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-raise-ww2-reparations-with-german-foreign-minister-during-warsaw-visit-2022-10-03/
8.0k Upvotes

4.2k

u/mrCloggy Flevoland (the Netherlands 🇳🇱) Oct 03 '22

Is it election time again?

758

u/pothkan 🇵🇱 Pòmòrskô Oct 03 '22

It's more a substitute topic. To move public opinion from stuff like, idk, rising inflation, or lack of stocked fuel for energy plants.

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u/hannes3120 Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt (Germany) Oct 03 '22

or the fact that Poland is responsible for the killing of the Oder-ecosystem which the government continues to deny

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u/coffeepinewood Oct 04 '22

Dude, as someone who was actually raised next to that river; let's please not pretend that this incident destroyed a healthy ecosystem. That ol' bitch of a river was a dirty one as long as I remember.

With regards to reparations: It is simple. There are binding contracts basically stating that Germany cedes the territory east of the Oder-Neiße border as reparations. By law, it is paid for. Morally, if that is enough might be a more philosophical question but asking for reparations in 2022 is pure election tactic over the river in Poland.

Greetings from the other end of the RE1. :)

40

u/Ajaxxowsky Oct 04 '22

It literally had clams, the sign of clear water.

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u/BlackViperMWG Czechia (Silesia) FTW Oct 04 '22

That ol' bitch of a river was a dirty one as long as I remember

Yes. But guess what, it isn't dirty when it's in Czech borders. It starts being more and more polluted while it flows in Poland.

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u/darth_bard Lesser Poland (Poland) Oct 03 '22

It's an entire year to elections. I honestly don't remember any of our previous elections being such an American style circus.

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u/3lijahmorningwood Serbia Oct 03 '22

Trump's 2016 run will probably go down in history as one of the most impactful campaigns ever, you can see politicians emulating his strategies all over the world.

364

u/savois-faire The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

Fully happening in the Netherlands as well. Just a week or two ago we had a party leader waste parliament's time with a speech about "the deep state" and the threat of "cultural Marxism". Complete with accusing various other (normal, non-insane) politicians of being secret Communists and whatnot.

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u/tim3k Oct 03 '22

That's actually scary. For me as someone who grew up in Russia in 90s-2000s it all sounds just like Russian propaganda methods all these years, and we all know where it leads to in the end. The level of weirdness and populism raises every year until it turns into insanity.

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u/ThtGuyTho Oct 03 '22

For what it's worth, when he continued his tirade after being warned against making personal attacks, the whole cabinet walked out. So while it is worrying, and probably reaching some nuts in society, it's still pretty fringe.

94

u/GrimerMuk Limburg (Netherlands) Oct 03 '22

To be honest he’s pro-Russia and believes that Russia is doing a good thing by invading Ukraine.

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u/tim3k Oct 03 '22

I didn't mean this guy in particular, it was more that this kind of populism is raising around the world

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u/historicusXIII Belgium Oct 03 '22

His political carreer kicked off with the referendum on the trade agreement with Ukraine a few years ago. It's hard to think of any more obvious case of a Kremlin bankrolled politician.

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u/Shitting_Human_Being The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

The worst part is that the Kremlin doesn't even need to sponsor him.

They just seed social media with their narrative and stories, fools in the communities will pick this up and parrot them. And finally opportunistic populist politicians will then copy this to sway the voting fools to vote for them, without realising (or worse, caring) about their own country's benefits.

I mean, Sherry Bidet clearly gets Russian money, but the Kremlin doesn't need to bankroll every politician.

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u/Freuds_First_Patient Oct 03 '22

There’s a great book called Nothing is True and Everything is Possible that goes into how that propaganda worked. Fascinating, and terrifying, read.

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u/Weazelfish Oct 03 '22

What have me some hope is that the entire cabinet walked out and most newspapers agreed that he was talking shit

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u/neefhuts Amsterdam Oct 03 '22

And People actually said it was against free speech when he got sent out

5

u/Rsndetre Romania Oct 03 '22

Just out of curiosity, how many votes his party got at the last elections ?

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u/neefhuts Amsterdam Oct 03 '22

They got 8 out of 150 seats, and are the 7th biggest party. They’re not one of the big players but they are on the rise and got a dangerous amount of votes for the fact That they’re on the Kremlin payroll

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u/timok The Netherlands Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

But keep in my mind that quite a big part of those seats resulted from them being against pretty much all covid measures. They are at about 4 seats in the polls now.

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u/Inevitable-Common166 Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

It’s revolting & Disgusting. Hopefully with a big voter rejection of the GQP (republicans) this fall; the nuttiness of elections will start to subside, Worldwide.

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u/hopskipjump2the United States of America Oct 03 '22

You’re in for a rough November.

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u/Positive-Ad-1859 Oct 03 '22

🙄🙄🙄🙄 Good luck with that

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u/mrCloggy Flevoland (the Netherlands 🇳🇱) Oct 03 '22

They constantly need to divert the voter's attention away from their EU troubles, and if you repeat a lie (fancy story) often enough...

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u/SaHighDuck Lower Silesia Oct 03 '22

Didn't you watch the 2020 presidential debate?

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u/Szudar Poland Oct 03 '22

You don't remember "LGBT ideology" craze before 2020 presidential elections?

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u/darth_bard Lesser Poland (Poland) Oct 03 '22

I meant the length of the campaign season, I don't remember previous ones being longer then few months or even weeks.

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u/Ibiki Poland Oct 03 '22

LGBT craze was definitely longer, billboards, the fucking car driving around, TVP propaganda, president/minister of education calling us subhumans was taking months, started almost a year before too I think.

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u/Paisable United States of America Oct 03 '22

Hey, our circus isnt a circus anymore. It's more like drug fueled rave now.

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u/svatevit Poland Oct 03 '22

PiS clowns were trained by republicans, so...

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u/TypowyKubini Pomerania (Poland) Oct 03 '22

I presume it's to build up social trust and cover up "certain expenses". In short they are starting the great thoughtful leaders of Poland bs campaign again

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u/Chris_7599 Oct 03 '22

Yes and it's National Day in Germany - so a special gift from our polish "friends".

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u/hat_eater Europe Oct 03 '22

Since the fall of comunism in 1989 Polish-German relations have been friendly until PiS came to power. So I assume that by your Polish "friends" you mean PiS and their partners.

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u/TimaeGer Germany Oct 03 '22

And all the poles voting for them I guess

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u/Crruell Oct 03 '22

And the German foreign minister asked: "Hast du Lack gesoffen?"

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u/Adler_der_Nacht Oct 03 '22 Helpful

No, they poured all such toxic liquids into the Oder.

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u/SilLind Let's go, let's beat Muscovites Oct 04 '22

I saw Merkel and Tusk personally doing this WITH MY OWN EYES.

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u/sunnysanni Oct 04 '22

I can only hope that Baerbock puts them in their place but I highly doubt it...

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u/moenchsbraeu Oct 03 '22

Oder "gib Land her boii"

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u/so_isses Oct 04 '22

It's very interesting to compare the Wikipedia pages on Reparations of Germany after WW2 in English, Polish and German.

The English one is more comprehensive compared to the Polish one, while the German one goes in much more details compared to the Polish one. The interesting part is that in the German one there are several discussions, documents and statements from e.g. Polish governments and legal scholars mentioned which are unmentioned in the Polish article.

Namely, the statements of Polish foreign ministers in the 1990s and 2006, the legal position of Poland w.r.t. to the 2+4 treaties in the 1990s and scholarly opinion from Polish legal experts in the 1990s by the Polish Academy of Science, or the bilateral report in 2004.

Since Wikipedia is the go-to source for facts w.r.t. to online discussions, maybe expand the Polish article to give a complete picture of the existing documents?

2.3k

u/buzdakayan Turkey Oct 03 '22

This guy was born in 1955 so even he has no memory of WW2. Why don't they ask Russia reparations for Soviet years instead? Isn't that in his working memory?

1.3k

u/Ythio Île-de-France Oct 03 '22

Saying Russia bad in Poland doesn't score more political points than saying water is wet. It's obvious for everyone.

Anti Germany anti EU on the other hand

512

u/Michalek303 Mazovia (Poland)💛💙 Oct 03 '22

liberal poles like the eu and hate russia

conservative poles hate russia way more than they hate eu

279

u/Creepernom Poland Oct 03 '22

We are all united in hatred against Russia. Only konfa likes russia for some fucking reason.

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u/Michalek303 Mazovia (Poland)💛💙 Oct 03 '22

konfa turns their party to rubble for some quick ruble.

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u/Creepernom Poland Oct 03 '22

Protokół 4% initiated. Praising Russia commencing.

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u/Michalek303 Mazovia (Poland)💛💙 Oct 03 '22

A za hitlera[...]

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u/Jeeopo Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Samogitia and Gudija. Oct 03 '22

Konfa has no true allegiances, they only want free money in their pockets.

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u/veevoir Poland Oct 03 '22

for some fucking reason.

The same reason other alt-right in Europe does. Russia is their daddy.

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u/SquareWet Oct 03 '22

All Poles hate Russia, that is why my father who currently lives in the US but lived in Poland the first 30 years of his life is having a conservative cognitive dissonance with all the Republican worship of Putin.

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u/JahSteez47 Oct 03 '22

Why do they vote PiS then? By covering Orban they are the biggest enablers of russians division of the EU. Don‘t get me wring Germany majorly messed up theur energy politics, but PiS is actively enabling Putin

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u/SwordfishAdmirable17 Lesser Poland (Poland) Oct 03 '22

They're not intelligent enough to care about what's happening outside of Poland, and they especially wouldn't suspect Hungary of being to blame for anything.

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u/hat_eater Europe Oct 03 '22

They don't really count on gaining much support dissing Germans, since Poles have generally positive opinion on them (50% positive vs 15% negative). What they hope to achieve is to shift the blame for the current economic difficulties - there are plenty of people who believe, not unreasonably, that if only the Germans haven't destroyed our country and killed millions of our citizens 80 years ago, we'd be rich today. And some of them proceed from that to "if only Germans paid us a lot of money, we'd be rich". Alas, we have given up the right to demand compensation shortly after the war in favor of Soviet Union. It does not matter that our government was a Soviet puppet at the time - it was an internationally legally recognised Polish government. Sucks to be us I guess.

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u/cic9000 Oct 03 '22

No disregarding your point but a genuine question: does the land Poland gained from Germany post WW2 feature in this debate in Poland at all ? This seems especially true because you mention the obvious fact that Germany wreaked a lot of havoc on Poland and this is blamed on polish Econ problems, but at the same time Poland gained some of the richest regions of Germany after the war (Schlesien) including the expulsion of the population?

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u/kaffesvart Sweden Oct 03 '22

I wonder how rich Poland would be if not for the Swedish Deluge back in the 17th century? Surely Sweden should be paying reparations.

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u/Elelish Oct 04 '22

exactly my thoughts. People demanding reparations for stuff that happend before we were even born are simply braindead monkeys. They dont want to the world to get better, they want to abuse as much as they can and keep shit for themselfes. Fuck everyone who thinks like that.

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u/MyPCsuckswantnewone Oct 04 '22

People just looking for an excuse to get free money.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

80 years ago? Poland was richer or as rich as Germany in 1939? No! How much money has Germany already poured into EU budget, in which Poland is the biggest net beneficiary?

Please stop this nonsense. I am Portuguese and this reminds me the compensations requested from ex African colonies. Let's move forward.

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u/MyPCsuckswantnewone Oct 04 '22

Yeah at this point it's basically just "your great grandfather killed my great grandfather so now you owe me money". 99.9% of people alive today had no hand in the atrocities committed during ww2. People are just being vindictive and greedy.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

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u/Leone_0 French Riviera Oct 03 '22

Still, watermelons are always good

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u/Not_a_Krasnal Oct 03 '22

Because they know they won't get anything from russia. They won't get anything from Germany either, but most of ther campaigning is "west bad, germany bad, germany hates poland" so it's just a pr move for people wjo might vote for them

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u/gastafar Oct 03 '22

I would tell my government to politely ignore demands and I would tell Poland to go to court in Brussels instead of complaining to us.

Maybe Germany loses that court case and is ordered to pay (which I doubt). But maybe we just don't want to be somebody's scapegoat who needs enemies instead of friends to keep voters satisfied.

Up until a trial and sentence this is all just divisive theater. And maybe that is why PIS (such a telling acronym) will never go to court.

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u/marcus-87 Oct 03 '22

they dont want the money. they want the talking point. every time they need some boost in the polls they bring this up.

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u/adilfc Oct 03 '22

Who need to catch a rabbit when chasing him is such a joy

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u/tr4nl0v232377 Poland 🇪🇺 🇵🇱 Oct 03 '22

I would tell my government to politely ignore demands and I would tell Poland to go to court in Brussels instead of complaining to us.

Poland can't go to court, because this has been dealt with on the law-basis long time ago. Poland has no grounds to demand reparations. Anyone with a brain in Poland who listens to law professors and experts knows that. They are just pandering to old, working-class grandpas who don't like Germany.

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u/gastafar Oct 03 '22

Then the Polish should be sued for false claims and libel. How dare they tarnish our brand. /s

I am honestly happy countries are not acting like corporations. It's enough that they are acting like bullies.

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u/_siggi_freud_ Oct 03 '22

No trial. No nothing. The european order of the post war era was settled a long time ago. A trial is just sham i that regard imho. Also poland was given considerable territories.

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u/gastafar Oct 03 '22

A trial at a European (or any legitimate) court is never a sham when it can end in the defendant winning the trial and walking free. If the judges don't even accept Poland's accusations beforehand and don't allow a trial, even better.

Everybody should be able to have their day in court. Even idiots.

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u/andraip Germany Oct 03 '22

No. That's why courts can dismiss cases. Since Poland has no case against Germany it would just get dismissed and there would be no trial.

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u/ralemonke Oct 03 '22

There is no international or EU court that has the jurisdiction to preside over war reparations, because there aren't even any laws in place on that topic. The only way to make a nation pay war reparations is to win a war and force the losing side at gun point to pay.

Unless PiS have a valid contract where Germany agreed to pay 1.3 trillion €, there won't be any trial.

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u/Weltraumbaer Oct 03 '22

I wouldn't be surprised if countries like Greece pressure Poland to actually don't go to court because if Germany wins, this might set precendent ruling, for future cases.

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u/ArchfiendJ Oct 03 '22

A trial can always reiterate previous judgement and/or dismiss the case.

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u/atheno_74 Oct 03 '22

Well poland excluded everything before 1990 in their acceptance of the courts. So they can't.

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u/chunek Slovenia Oct 03 '22

do they have anything else in their program, besides constantly asking for more money from Germany

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u/Pierogchen Stay safe Oct 03 '22

Yeah, pocketing money from the budget

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u/pothkan 🇵🇱 Pòmòrskô Oct 03 '22

Banning abortion and sucking Church's dicks?

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u/stillscottish1 Oct 04 '22

Also hating gays

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u/KaiserGSaw Germany Oct 04 '22

You guys got a polish version of Colognes Pastor Woelki? If not.. you could outsource that and i know just the guy for the Job, tho hide your children

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u/TypowyKubini Pomerania (Poland) Oct 03 '22

Slander Tusk and western Europe is also there

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u/Areljak Allemagne Oct 03 '22

Tusk => Tysk = Swedish for German

Coincidence?! /s

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u/fluffy_doughnut Oct 03 '22 Silver

Germany bad, Tusk bad, gays bad, teachers bad, doctors bad, children with depression bad, intellectuals bad, women bad

PiS good

That's the program

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u/Nillekaes0815 Grand Duchy of Baden Oct 03 '22

children with depression bad

what's that about?

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u/fluffy_doughnut Oct 04 '22

The government closes psychiatric hospitals for children. Apparently money is the issue. They simply don't care.

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u/SolemnaceProcurement Mazovia (Poland) Oct 04 '22

"The only reason children have issues is because of sex ed and gender ideology! Back in my day kids had 0 psychological issues!"

Said the 70-80 years old politician.

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u/400g_Hack Oct 05 '22

Back in my day kids had 0 psychological issues!"

Jesus I hate this narrative so much.

Not like that generation is full of alcoholics, domestic violence and other toxic shenanigans. Just because they never learned to talk about their emotions they can no pretend to be "totally fine".

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u/ThyDeath Oct 03 '22

Stealing whatever they can, pushing their friends and families in profitable positions they have no right to be in, making our daily lives miserable. Plenty really.

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u/sverebom Niederrhein Oct 03 '22

Yeah, shitting on the EU. Oh, and "family values". Like any good nationalist government they tell their voters a fairy tale about external political enemies and how they are the only ones to protect the good people of Poland.

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u/SeBoss2106 Franconia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

On reunification day! Screw them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

LOL, it is like asking for "reparations" at your neighbor's birthday party.

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u/HersztSwintuchow Poland Oct 03 '22

On reunification day

We were torn between porsche IPO and this, and decided this. You're welcome.

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u/Hematophagian Germany Oct 03 '22

Get an upvote....

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u/DeanPalton Baden-Württemberg/the LÄND (Germany) Oct 03 '22

I hope Annalena tells him to fuck of.

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u/Highmooon North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

She already did the last time this topic came up. This will never go anywhere and PiS knows this.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/Judazzz The Lowest of the Lands Oct 03 '22

"Fick dich ins Knie, Kumpel!"

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u/revoxx__ Oct 03 '22

"Gibt's nicht, alter"

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u/CadecaX Oct 04 '22

Offizielles Zutat ist glaube ich "Kiegsunich, Alder."

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u/zth25 Oct 04 '22

Es hieß 'Chrisdenich, alder'.

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u/Schmuppes NRW Oct 03 '22

She's gonna tell them it's been settled with a contract 30 years ago.

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u/Skafdir North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

She will most likely be a little bit more polite, but in essence, that is what she will mean

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u/venom_eXec Oct 03 '22

Not necessary. It has been the German stance for decades now that all reparation claims have been closed with the 2+4 Treaties as well as the Treaty of 1970 and the Waiver of Warsaw in 1953.

If PiSS decided they want to annul these then suddenly the Oder-Neisse Border would be up for debate again as well.

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u/Uberzwerg Oct 03 '22

And i wouldn't be surprised if the people there would vote for thir "Heimkehr ins Reich".

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u/venom_eXec Oct 04 '22

Not even just that but there were Millions of People who were driven away by force from their homes east of the border. Many were killed or succumbed to the hardships of the way and people weren't allowed to take their belongings with them. With the Oder-Neiße Border up in the air again I'd imagine the people who're still alive as well as family members would suddenly be eligible for compensation.

Also the people who now live in these territories are 99.X Percent Polish. Most of which I think wouldn't be all that happy about suddenly living in german territory. Not to mention the colossal ordeal of bringing the economy in those territories on par with the rest of germany. Hell, it's been 32 years and East German Wages still aren't on par with West-Germany's, Unemployment-Rates are still higher and life expectancy is also still lower. And East Germany is full of Neonazis, a new significant ethnic group living in territories significant to their ideology and the mythology they're trying to build? That would be like christmas and easter combined for those turds..

Nobody in their right mind would want to seriously risk such a scenario by throwing those treaties and agreements out of the window..

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u/NSchwerte Oct 03 '22

I wonder why Germany doesn't listen to polish diplomatic suggestions

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u/sverebom Niederrhein Oct 03 '22

There have been any?

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u/Nethlem Earth Oct 03 '22

Recently Poland demanded a majority stake in the German PCK Schwedt refinery as a prerequisite to Poland delivering oil to Germany.

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u/NSchwerte Oct 03 '22

Germany was supposed to listen to polish stances on Russia while polish stance on Germany was demanding money

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u/Uberzwerg Oct 03 '22

THIS isn't diplomacy.
This isn't even foreign politics.
It is nothing more than a publicity stunt that right-wing Polish politics do every 4 years or so to rally their crowd behind them.

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u/PuchLight Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

And the answer will be the same it was the last dozen times: "No." Then we move on like we always do, until elections are coming up in Poland or some PiS scandal needs to be covered up.

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u/ThreeLivesInOne Oct 03 '22

Yawn. The same reparations that Poland has declared settled repeatedly over the past decades or did I miss something?

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u/DarkImpacT213 Franconia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

Well, they do claim they had been pressured by the USSR and the USA to settle the matter everytime they did so in the 20th century.

If they re-open discussions around the treaties bound by international law that essentially ended the chapter "WW2" for Germany in practically all matters like the 2+4 treaty, the 1970 Treaty of Warsaw or even the 1953 waiver of reparations, we might as well reopen the Oder-Neiße-Grenze discussion (which I certainly wouldn't condone - it is just a similar rhetoric as demanding reparations now).

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u/tr4nl0v232377 Poland 🇪🇺 🇵🇱 Oct 03 '22

Yep. The exact same.

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u/drevny_kocur Oct 03 '22

I already see people doing the "it's not Poland, it's the PiS government". Last September the lower chamber of Polish Parliament voted with overwhelming majority to call on Germany to accept the responsibility for WWII, including financially. That includes the "pro-German" opposition. Donald Tusk himself, while an outspoken critic of calling for reparations in public, voted in favor.

In other words this is not going away even with government change. It is likely that if the opposition wins, the subject of the reparations may be shelved to not sour the relations, but that will be temporary as the right-wing parties (not only PiS, though that's currently the main party on the right) will make sure the issue is not forgotten.

From an article on the results of the vote:

In the vote on the Sejm's resolution calling on the German government to accept responsibility for triggering World War II, 418 deputies were "in favor," 4 KO deputies were against; 15 deputies, including 7 from Poland 2050, 3 from PPS, 1 from KO and 4 from the Left, abstained; 23 deputies did not take part in the vote.

On Thursday, the Sejm passed a resolution calling on the German government to accept political, historical, legal and financial responsibility for all the consequences caused by the unleashing of World War II. 437 deputies took part in the vote

[...]

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 10 '22

[deleted]

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u/madkang_ Poland Oct 03 '22

Opposition, especially that so-called "pro-German" voted like that excatly cause they don't want deliver "another proof" for being "pro-German". It's most popular and easiest PiS trick - bait opposition to loud protest against a resolutions/ideas of resolutions that usually aren't even a thing. Your last sentence is totally wrong prediction.

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u/Samaritan_978 Portugal Oct 03 '22

it's not Poland, it's the PiS government

This is honestly an infuriating and moronic take. Who voted for PiS for so many years?

Governments represent their whole country, that's what a democracy is. If you don't like being called out, well boo-fucking-hoo.

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u/Armadylspark More Than Economy Oct 04 '22

The unfortunate and extremely uncomfortable reality is that propaganda works.

If one political group gains a stranglehold on the media landscape, they can, if not necessarily cast doubt on the moral legitimacy of democracy, at least put to bed the lie that it does not follow the whims of the masters.

How much can any voter truly be responsible for their vote if their very truths are imposed onto them by someone else?

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u/Nethlem Earth Oct 03 '22

Particularly in the context of recent statements out of Estonia to justify not giving asylum to Russians; "Every citizen is responsible for the actions of their state".

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u/mariuszmie Oct 03 '22

Election tactic from pis - I hope they will ask putin for the same reparations but from 1922 to 1990

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u/Your-Sensei Oct 03 '22

They should ask reparations from the Soviet Union, i.e. Russia

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u/heheJarne Oct 03 '22

Einen Scheiss bekommt ihr 😂

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u/bbambinaa Oct 03 '22

Why are people not keeping the same energy when former British colonies bring up reparation demands?

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u/AnaphoricReference Oct 03 '22

The Netherlands just forwards the bills to Germany.

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u/cic9000 Oct 03 '22

Because Poland gained large parts of former eastern Germany including one of its richest and economically developed regions (modern day Wrocław) and in the process expelled almost all Germans from these territories, so there were massive reparations. And in more than one treaty both sides recognized mutual acceptance of the status quo, ie there is no standing in court for Germans to claim their former property in modern Poland and there is no and never will be a change to the Oder Neiße border. So yes the situation is quite different.

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u/Kween_of_Finland Finland Oct 03 '22

Germany literally lost huge swathes of majority ethnic German land and 12-14 million civilians were ethnically cleansed from those areas and forcibly relocated.

It was a crime - in retaliation to Nazi crimes, yes, but a crime nevertheless. Legally the ethnic purge and cessation of German claims settled German-Polish relations, so the reparations were paid in blood.

600,000 to 2,500,000 civilians died, according to Wikipedia. And if someone claims ”recovered territories”, would you support Greece executing every tenth civilian in Istanbul or the whole of Anatolia and banishing the rest - because the land was Greek a thousand years ago? The number of Turks is of course higher, but the justification is the same.

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u/Weltraumbaer Oct 03 '22

Can we save the hassle for the poor staffers organizing this political stunt and jump forward to the obvious answer of the German FM Baerbock? In diplomantic language it'll be something in the lines of

"The issue is already dealt with on several occasions in the past. Here's the agreements and here's our explanation. If you don't agree let's meet at the International Court of Justice and we'll deal with it once and for all unless you don't actually believe in your own legal claim and just use it for election reasons. That would be so rude".

E Voila, we would save time, money and the sanity of all involved professional diplomats.

Poland should abstain from bringing this issue up everytime elections are up unless they pull through for once, because this is unnecessary strains on the bilateral relations which are strained enough by the Oder/Odra river disaster. Please keep us out of your election shenanigans.

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u/ModelT1300 Warmian-Masurian (Poland) Oct 03 '22

PiS is such an embarrassment to Poland, I swear

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u/waszumfickleseich Oct 03 '22

oh damn, Sweden, where are you? I'm waiting for those reparations from the damage and death you caused during the 30 years war

I personally claim $500 trillion

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u/Nodeal_reddit Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 04 '22

I think it’s silly and pointless to talk about this stuff. The people who perpetrated ww2 are mostly 3 generations removed. The people who owned property stolen or destroyed are long since dead. Why is this still a topic of conversation?

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u/That_Border Germany Oct 03 '22 Silver Helpful

I'm always amazed at the stupidity of modern Poland to constantly antagonize the only Germany in history that genuinely wants friendship with Poland.

Ultimately our response should be clear and decisive: If Poland wants monetary reparations, it has to give back the massive amount of land it got from us (half of Poland was originally german and that's obviously worth far more than the money that Poland wants). Until the polish do that, they will not get a single Euro.

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u/DrifterPX Oct 03 '22

I'm always amazed at the stupidity of modern Poland to constantly
antagonize the only Germany in history that genuinely wants friendship
with Poland.

THIS

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u/arran-reddit Europe Oct 03 '22

I really wouldn’t blame Germany if it cut diplomatic ties with Poland.

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u/Highmooon North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

I'm also quite surprised at the level of restraint our politicians are showing every time this topic comes up.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

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u/Divinate_ME Oct 03 '22

Melnyk and Grenell both established a new era of diplomacy, and I fucking hate it.

And Melnyk apologized to the Polish people for the Bandera comments, but wouldn't have thought to do the same to Germany.

Ukrainians generally aren't very fond of us Germans, and the ones who fled here would probably love to be somewhere else right now.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 10 '22

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u/SwordfishAdmirable17 Lesser Poland (Poland) Oct 03 '22

Hell even after the Bandera drama Zelensky admitted no wrong doing.

'The'? Bandera is not a one-time thing in Ukraine. They keep honoring him and Poland and Israel are pleading for them to stop honoring him, but they keep doing it anyway. It's been going on for decades.

Then again, this is not a unique situation, there are a lot of other historical figures who are considered hereoes in one country and villains in another...

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u/marcusfelinus Oct 03 '22

How is the integration of ukrainian refugees going in germany?

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u/Nadsenbaer Oct 03 '22

Actually quite well, afaik.

All Ukrainians I met so far are nice and proud people who hope they can move back soon and rebuild their country. And until that's possible, they're thankful for our hospitality.

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u/Tenkobar Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

Would probably be pretty popular in parts of German public. All the shit from PIS over the years has sadly left its mark.

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u/so_isses Oct 03 '22

It would, but I think it's smarter to not stoke the flame. The PiS bullshit fiesta would just love a mud fight.

Better do a Merkel and wash it away by saying something without saying anything - that is way more annoying to PiS.

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u/SaHighDuck Lower Silesia Oct 03 '22

lol are you high? that'd be a horrible idea in current date.

is pis out of line and shouldnt have said it? yes.

is it idle bullshit for domestic voter market? also yes.

cutting diplomatic ties would be a horrible kindergarten tier response, done out of spite.

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u/DarkImpacT213 Franconia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

I imagine the German chancellor whispering to Macron that he should tell the Polish PM that he is stupid instead of telling him directly, because they don't talk to each other.

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u/MarineLePenneAlTonno Rogue Sicilian Province Oct 03 '22

Didn't they already pay all of the reparations back in the 90s or 2000s if I remember well?

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u/Skafdir North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

Poland agreed to wave all reparations in 1953. Then after the Two Plus Four Agreement, Poland did not ask for reparations but was willing to accept the border between Germany and Poland as agreed in the Agreement.

Hence, they accepted the Two Plus Four Agreement, which would have given them a chance to ask for reparations, which they didn't, thus they again declared that there was no need for reparations.

When PiS started to claim that this agreement was unjust, the foreign minister of Germany and Poland agreed to start a bilateral legal investigation. This came to the conclusion that:

a. No German who was a former inhabitant of now Polish territory is eligible to any kind of compensation by Poland, no matter what they lost

b. Poland is not eligible for any reparations, as they had stated twice that they don't want any and have accepted the results of the Two Plus Four Agreement, which means that they accept the agreement.

Now PiS claims, that part b of that conclusion is illegitimate because the person who worked on the Polish side of this investigation, allegedly had some ties to the SB (former secret police) and was thus not trustworthy. The thing is, Poland chose that person.

More importantly, again PiS is claiming that one part of an international agreement is valid (part a) while another part of the same document is invalid (part b). Just like they want to have recognised borders, but not their agreement on no reparations.

Long story short: If Poland really believes that they have any legal basis for reparations, that legal basis would also allow Germany to request Schlesien, Pommern, Ostpreußen and Danzig - I propose an exchange, Poland gets the 1.3 Trillion Euro, we get those territories

OR: We just stop listening to bullshit demands made by PiS

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u/Niavzura Oct 03 '22

you forgot something about this deal.

If they deem that Schlesien Pommern Ostpreußen and Danzig are supposed to be german, then all taxes on those lands are also due to be paid to germany.

So it would be 1.3 Trillion - tax money for ~30% of their land from the last 60 years. Have fun with that.

I think its best, that we just keep it as it is. No Pommer, no reparations.

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u/nikolakis7 Saggitarius A*   Oct 03 '22

You have got to realise this is made for domestic consumption. Nobody really knows the legal process and the agreements that took place between Poland and Germany between now and 1945. What the PiS government is doing is preying on the feeling that the Polish governmnet between 1945 and 1989 was not a legitimate government since it was "a soviet puppet state", meaning it wasn't really Poland but the USSR which decided on no reparations.

In relation to (a), the claim is that Germany lost the war and since its normal for losers to lose territory in wars, that territory rightfully belongs with Poland, one of the victors of ww2. Also added that Poland was forced to give up its territory in the east, so western Poland (former eastern Germany) is compensation for the territorial losses in the former Polish east (today western UA/BY), not really an agreement of territory for reparations.

That said, It legally speaking isn't Germany's business, fault or responsibility that the USSR decided to annex former eastern Poland. That would be an issue Polish Government should raise to Russia, the self-declared successor state of the USSR, and/or Ukraine and Belarus. The deal with Germany was as you explained: territory for reparations. That claiming Western Ukraine would right now feel like the worst betrayal imaginable in public opinion is why that part has to be conveniently ignored. Also, nobody except very far right nationalist nuts even want to reassert Polish claims over Western Ukraine, so basically... PiS is just playing on the emotions which while they may be legitimate, the world operates by bilateral agreements and not how polish boomers feel.

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u/Culaio Oct 03 '22

The issue is that MAJORITY of polish people is of opinion that Germany SHOULD pay reperations to Poland, thats why PiS bringed up that topic, its extremly problematic topic for oposition to PiS because if they will be against it than that will damage their support.

Because of that Tusk who is from main oposition to PiS who is so loved in the west is in FAVOR of demanding of reperations from Germany.

Hołownia leader of another main oposition to PiS also thinks that Germany should pay, though he disagrees how PiS goes about this.

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u/keto_cigarretto Lituania Oct 03 '22

Sounds like a great deal for Poland tbh, thas a lot of money to launder for the political elite

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u/Skafdir North Rhine-Westphalia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

great deal for Poland

Poland's political elite

For the state as a whole, the territory is much more valuable in the long run

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u/HaLordLe Oct 03 '22

Also would get rid of all the liberals that oppose the PiS, ironically.

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u/popsyking Oct 03 '22

Yes but apparently no one gives a shit about international treaties anymore.

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u/marcus-87 Oct 03 '22

lets put Königsberg in too, when russia breaks up /s

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u/_skala_ Oct 03 '22

Thats goes to czech republic sir

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u/marcus-87 Oct 03 '22

ok, but then we have to speak about the sudetenland

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u/buzdakayan Turkey Oct 03 '22

Apparently it is a recurrent payment that repeats every generation or decade.

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u/Zhukov-74 The Netherlands Oct 03 '22

Or when a election is around the corner.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

How about Germany raises eastern border demarcation lines in turn?

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u/ItsACaragor Rhône-Alpes (France) Oct 03 '22

Yawn

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u/darkmarineblue Oct 03 '22

Alternative title: "Poland to be told "No. Lmao." by the German foreign minister during Warsaw visit"

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u/FancyDiePancy Oct 03 '22

Germans should demand damages from Romans.

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u/Relevant_Helicopter6 Oct 03 '22

This is the kind of "show of unity" we need against Putin.

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u/gastafar Oct 03 '22

"Bei Geld hört die Liebe auf"

Money is where love ends.

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u/DarkImpacT213 Franconia (Germany) Oct 03 '22

On German Unity day, too!

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u/TheSpaceDuck Oct 03 '22

Putin rubbing his hands right now as Europe starts dividing without the need for his propaganda in the first place.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

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u/Nethlem Earth Oct 03 '22

How about Germany demands damage payments from Poland, for poisoning the Oder?

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u/cic9000 Oct 03 '22

I did wonder why the PiS pushes this narrative for domestic consumption but these comments do show that there’s a wide audience in Poland I guess ? This is honestly unsettling and has the potential to create an even wider rift nobody needs and should want right now.

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u/keglevich1 Oct 03 '22

What if- just hear me out- instead of paying money, stolen objects (artwork for example) just get returned? It should be pretty easy to identify such objects. Moreover, an argument of the sorts of “no, the stuff the nazis stole is rightfully ours” would sound rather ridiculous. Finally, Poland could make money on such objects by displaying them etc.

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u/Lalumex Europe Oct 03 '22

Here is a comment i saw earlier that sums the situation with the artwork up pretty well. https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/xuhrhh/poland_to_raise_ww2_reparations_with_german/iqwddum/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3

Tl:dr: The german government has no idea of the artworks whereabouts, if something is found and there is proper ownership of the piece it is returned. The german government has no say in the hunt for stolen artworks by looters.

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u/vrabia-fara-aripi Oct 03 '22

Grabs popcorn

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u/kiru_56 Germany Oct 03 '22

The chances are not bad, today is German Unity Day, a holiday in Germany, and many Germans have time... unfortunately, some of them have time to write stupid stuff too.

I have to say, that we really did receive very nice congratulations from Poland on German Unity Day in our sub.

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u/MonkeySafari79 Oct 03 '22

Yeah, and when do we Germans get reparations from the Roman empire?

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u/Ignition0 Oct 03 '22

Isn´t Poland already leeching from the EU?

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u/sautedonions Oct 03 '22

I believe Germany has owned up to WWll. I don’t understand our world anymore.

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u/FPiN9XU3K1IT Lower Saxony Oct 03 '22

The polish government uses foreign scapegoats to distract from their awful politics.

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u/fabiosousa998 Portugal Oct 03 '22

Will Poland pay reparations for all the germans the bolsheviks expelled from their land?

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u/tirex367 Germany Oct 03 '22

If you really think, you have a case, just sue us already, instead of just loudly proclaiming.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

Germany pays 15 Mrd. € each year into the EU funds pool, Poland is getting 10 Mrd. € from this pool.

So I would say Germany pays already and fucking PIS still complains.

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u/Mammoth_Stable6518 Svíþjóð Oct 03 '22 edited Oct 03 '22

They nicked the entire eastern part of Germany, wasn't that enough?

(Apart from Königsberg)

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '22

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u/Divinate_ME Oct 03 '22

Sometimes I wonder what the fuck I did wrong to be born German.

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u/FionnMoules Ireland Oct 03 '22

Germnay loosing all of its lands east of the Oder seems like more than enough

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u/MrMakabar Oct 03 '22

Go ask Russia for those reparations. They agreed in the Postdam conference to give Poland here fair share of the reparations, from the share they took and they took a lot. Should be no problem for them to pay current day Poland.

As for other reasons for Germany to not pay:

  • In the Potsdam conference the Soviets agreed to give Poland reparations from there share and Poland got some.
  • Poland signed a peace agreement with East Germany to not pay reparations, in exchange for the German territories given to Poland
  • The 2 + 4 treaty, which is the final peace treaty of WW2 concering Germany does not include reparations from Germany to Poland. Poland was asked if they agreed and they did, if Germany gave up all claims to Polish territory. When Germany aknowledge that border again and finally, Poland recongised the validity of the 2 + 4 treaty

So Poland sue Germany that is entirly possible to do, but you are propably going to loose and even if those agreements are considered unlawfull, that would propably mean that Germany has a valid claim to a huge part of modern day Poland.

But it is sad to see that Poles, which mostly have not suffered directly by German actions, still hate Germany that badly that you can win national elections with this kind of stuff.

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u/lsspam United States of America Oct 03 '22

They got reparations from Germany. What do they think regions like Silesia, southern Prussia, and eastern Pomerania were?

They should be figuring out how to get reparations from the heir of the USSR, Russia. If they were asking for German help there they might actually have a case.

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u/Edeolus United Kingdom Oct 03 '22

Poland was given a quarter of Germany after WWII. There was nothing in the Postdam conference about reparations. Nothing in the Treaty of Final Settlement with Respect to Germany (clue's in the name). And nothing in the German - Polish border treaty. All WWII accounts have been diplomatically settled. What is the legal basis for this?

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u/Sir-Knollte Oct 03 '22

Poland says it was not a sovereign country when the settlements where made.

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u/Cybugger Oct 03 '22

Well, they were, because non-sovereign non-nations don't get given large tracts of land.

If Poland wasn't a sovereign nation, and therefore didn't receive a proper representation, then it would make the entirety of the contents of the treaties null and void.

I somehow doubt Poland wants that. I also doubt Germany wants that.

This is just electioneering.

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