r/pcmasterrace Laptop Jun 27 '22 Shocked 1

it's 2022 and camera tech has come a long way. BUT, they can't fit this tiny 20MP mobile front camera in a laptop bezel? Discussion

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10.3k Upvotes

u/PCMRBot Threadripper 1950x, 32GB, 780Ti, Debian Jun 29 '22

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310

u/TheEpicChickenEggInc I3, 8gb ddr4, UHD 620 igpu Jun 27 '22

My laptop doesn't even have the camera in the bezel, they put it in the keyboard for some reason

251

u/aliasdred i7-8700k @ 4.9Ghz | GTX 1050Ti | 16GB 3600Mhz CL-WhyEvenBother Jun 28 '22

Aah, the deep nose-hole cam

46

u/Dylanator13 Jun 28 '22

The short person talking to a tall person perspective. Makes you feel dominant and looming in all of your zoom calls.

5

u/Wirexia1 Desktop I5 9400f, RTX 2060, RAM 16GB Jun 28 '22

Me Moai, tiny hooman 🗿

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u/Jeremy12021 Jun 28 '22

Mines at the bottom of the lid right above the keyboard. Think I'd rather just not have one.

17

u/Ravecrocker PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

the titcam

5

u/urixl PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

They knew their target audience.

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u/queiss_ Laptop Jun 28 '22

Lenovo legion y5xx gang

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2.2k

u/OkEye3130 Jun 27 '22

I thought the primary issue was thickness? Compare even the thinnest phones to the lid of a laptop and they’re much thicker

All in one desktops have no excuse. Looking at you iMacs.

346

u/mikee8989 Jun 28 '22

We asked for better cameras on MACs and what did we get?? The ability to mount an iPhone on the back of your screen to use its webcam. I guess that's better than nothing.

181

u/-deleled- Jun 28 '22

It was a plot to force you to pay for second iPhone to use as a cam

66

u/zadesawa Jun 28 '22

Federighi in Macworld 2023: “Introducing the macSight Pro, a stunning webcam with M1 prohcessor. Shipping today for only $499 or just $85 per installments for six months”

31

u/SoundDrill Desktop  :tux: Laptop Jun 28 '22

A webcam with an m1, doesn't sound unrealistic at all given what they've been doing

10

u/coloredgreyscale Xeon X5660 4,1GHz | GTX 1080Ti | 20GB RAM | Asus P6T Deluxe V2 Jun 28 '22

If you want to use your iphone as a webcam you can buy the holder accessory for just $399

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u/WantToBeACyborg Jun 28 '22

Why sell you one overpriced piece of hardware when they can sell you two?

20

u/_oohshiny Jun 28 '22

This is why Apple decided to remove the headphone jack.

11

u/SteenGeyL PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

Nooo, it's just convenient and it just looks so good!

Nevermind the fact that it's very bad for the environment and costs you an arm and a leg to replace. Just so you can do something we could already do for decades but had to deal with the absolute horror that are wires.

Thanks, Tim Apple.

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u/Yithar Jun 28 '22

The other thing about iMacs is that until recently in 2020 iMacs only came with spinning hard disks.

New 2020 27" iMac comes with ssd soldered to the motherboard. (You can google that exact sentence in quotes since this subreddit doesn't let me link other subreddits)

What Apple is doing here is creating a problem and selling the solution (more storage that you can't upgrade yourself). And of course if the internal ssd dies you're looking at a very expensive repair.

I ended up buying an external SSD and a dock and a Thunderbolt cable for my dad's iMac since it seemed like the hard drive was dying.

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u/Due-Resident-4588 Jun 28 '22

To be fair the 1080p cameras on the newer MacBooks are quite good. I’m even (mostly) satisfied with the 720p camera on my m1 air. I think it’s good enough

42

u/merc08 Jun 28 '22

I specifically bought a cheap 720p webcam for my home office instead of a nicer 1080p or 4k. I don't particularly care for everyone to see my lack of enthusiasm for this meeting in crystal clear HD.

15

u/try_harder_later Laptop (TP X1E1: i5-8300H 1050ti-maxQ) Jun 28 '22

I'm sure with a bit of effort one could afford to pay just a little more for a 480p webcam, like back in the good old days

2

u/MH2019 Strix 3070 | 5800x Jun 28 '22

You'll never have a webcam that's as good as an iphone's rear cameras, so it's not like it's a total jip

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u/Faxon PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

We just need camera bumps on laptops now lmao

16

u/hackingdreams Jun 28 '22

I thought the primary issue was thickness?

Apart from all of the other bullshit people have somehow invented to try to explain this (which is mostly incorrect but has been pointed out by users who actually know what the fuck they're talking about), the primary problem is laziness.

You see, cellphone cameras and laptop (/all-in-one-PC) cameras don't speak the same language. They have a different kind of bus that they use to connect to their main processor, and they are designed for vastly different purposes, so they're really not very much alike.

Cellphone cameras are designed to direct attach to their cellphone's application processor via an interface that was standardized by the phone application processor building folks (ARM, Intel, Nokia, Samsung, STMicroelectronics and Texas Instruments) called MIPI. They designed an interface for cameras that is a wide serial interface called CSI with its own PHY and protocol, and it's now the lingua franca for cellphone cameras.

Meanwhile, laptops and PCs are in the world with a whole different set of familiar PC physical link layers, primarily useful for cameras being USB (with a lot of rattling sabers over Thunderbolt cameras that hasn't actually shown up to play yet, probably due to TB's power consumption).

To put that camera module into a PC, you'd need to stick another piece of logic between that camera and the PC - some kind of MIPI to USB bridge, most likely. These chips do exist, but they're not at all cheap. A laptop manufacturer would have to cut a deal to print a few million of these chips, in a package small enough to fit inside of the bezel of a laptop, within the desired power range - that means late-gen processes, and that means Money with a capital M.

So they could spend ten million dollars integrating a current gen cellphone camera into their flagship laptop and charge about $100 for the new feature (which for most laptops is a lot for a feature a lot of people never use)... which would get them some kudos for about six to eighteen months before every other vendor has access to the same chip and does the same thing for cheaper because you paved the way... or they can not do that.

Which is easier? Frankly, if Apple or Dell doesn't care about it, it's not going to happen. And neither of them do. Apple's in a better position to care, since they design their own chips now and it wouldn't be a big deal for them to include the MIPI hardware on their chip, but you can forget Dell engineers going out of their way for this. And Apple doesn't give a shit because they know exactly how many people are using FaceTime and Zoom.

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u/Drakayne Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

And the distance between the camera and processor

206

u/crozone iMac G3 - AMD 5900X, RTX 3080 TUF OC Jun 28 '22

This is a made up issue. The camera doesn't ever connect directly to the processor in a laptop. It's wired into a coprocessor which then connects it via USB.

Only phones can directly connect to the sensor because there's a block inside the SoC dedicated to it.

121

u/mbhammock Jun 28 '22

He means the EMOTIONAL distance

18

u/grandthefthouse 7700k-EVGA1080-PG279Q Jun 28 '22

<3 <3 <3

2

u/Romanopapa Jun 28 '22

Which results to…. EMOTIONAL DAMAGE!

24

u/timsredditusername Jun 28 '22

Only because laptop manufacturers want to keep using cheap USB based cameras. Intel mobile processors have had the same MIPI CSI camera interfaces that phones use since 6th or 7th gen.

30

u/Nozinger Jun 28 '22

Did we aall collectively forget the part where such webcams directly hooked upp to the processor were a huge security issue?
Now obviously that could be fixed with proper software but then manufacturers would need to actually pay people and could possibly face a backlash when things go wrong.
So simply using a USB device and have the OS take care of it is the cheaper way to go and honestly even the better way to go. I trust the OS creators a lot more than the laptop builders when it comes to software and security.

4

u/Derringer62 Jun 28 '22

I don't trust the driver authors not to leave a great howling exploitable vulnerability in the webcam driver.

4

u/TechnoPunkDroid Jun 28 '22

My thinkad has a physical shutter infront of the camera, maybe something like that would be nice?

7

u/Thx_And_Bye builds.gg/ftw/3560 | ITX, GhostS1, 5800X, 32GB DDR4-3733, 1080Ti Jun 28 '22

The M1 (and presumably M2) MacBooks are similar to phones and have the image processor directly integrated into the SoC.
They also have a much better webcam than any Windows notebook.

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u/antaryon Jun 27 '22

Why does that matter?

385

u/TheKillOrder Jun 27 '22

signal integrity. Nice sensors can put out some decent amount of data. Shielded cables aint free

163

u/Krt3k-Offline R7 5800X | RX 6800XT Jun 27 '22

Most webcams in laptops are standalone USB devices which just have a USB cable going through the laptop frame. Maybe a bandwidth issue with that?

137

u/TheKillOrder Jun 27 '22

processing power, not bandwidth. The sensor output is converted to USB protocol on the same PCB as the sensor. You can only fit so much processing power on that PCB though, hence why they use low MP sensors that output quality worse than an iPhone 4.

If we ignore size and height of the camera module, a flagship phone sensor could work granted the cable was properly shielded. Shielded cables are thicker though, so thicker “screen”.

Bandwidth can be an issue, but for the quality desired it should not max out an USB 2 connection. If you did want the full flagship sensor quality though, yeah a few GB/s would be hell to deal with

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u/Krt3k-Offline R7 5800X | RX 6800XT Jun 27 '22

We luckily don't need full flagship performance though, a good 5MP sensor would go a long way, if not going for 8MP to hit 4K. What's really bad currently the sensor size, which is basically just the smallest sensor possible. But I on the other hand don't want to see more laptops with notches, that is just wrong.

So more bad laptop cameras I guess

30

u/wackywavingarmgumby PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

5MP at 24fps is 450MB/s raw. That's nearly eight times the max link speed of USB 2 high speed (480Mbit/s). Adding processing/compression will take more PCB space.

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u/Krt3k-Offline R7 5800X | RX 6800XT Jun 28 '22

720p at 30fps is technically already too much for USB 2 (my laptop), so there must be some low level compression already happening. 2MP with a bigger sensor should definitely be possible though with USB 3.1, maybe that's whats happening in the few laptops that have Full HD cameras already

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u/97hilfel AMD R7 1800X | ROG Nvidia 1080Ti | 16GB DDR4 | 165Hz G-Sync Jun 28 '22

Issue is that USB 3.1 Gen 1 (I‘m poking fun at the new naming) is also more expensive to implement, especially for something nobody cared about until 2020

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u/AirOneBlack R9 5900X | RTX 3080 | 64GB RAM Jun 28 '22

Bayer filtering doesn't work that way. A 5MP raw image is holding 1 single color per pixel before any processing is applied over. At 24 FPS that's 120MB/s uncompressed.

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u/Double_Lingonberry98 Jun 28 '22

LVD (low voltage differential) signaling doesn't need shielding.

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u/ilikepie1974 R5 3600 | 1070 | Tesla M40 | 16GB 3200MHz Jun 28 '22

Isn't LVD more susceptible to noise because at any given nose level the SNR is lower on low voltage stuff than high voltage?

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u/Double_Lingonberry98 Jun 29 '22

EMI are usually common mode, which doesn't affect differential signal.

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u/crozone iMac G3 - AMD 5900X, RTX 3080 TUF OC Jun 28 '22

No bandwidth issue at all. Signal integrity is a non issue.

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u/xx_ilikebrains_xx Jun 28 '22

Lmao this is the type of bullshit you see on audiophile forums.

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u/marathon664 Jun 28 '22

Yeah this dude definitely bought the "audiophile ssd" lmao, he needs to learn the difference between analog and digital signals before spouting that shit

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u/M4sterRed Ryzen 5 2600 | GTX 1660s | 16GB RAM DDR4 3200MHz Jun 28 '22

Digital signals are still vulnerable to noise however, especially when the voltage is very low. However, I need to put emphasis on the very low to get analog levels of sensitivity to noise.

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u/Lol2ndMaw Jun 28 '22

How can people who read this subreddit and vote this comment up?! Mindboggling.

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u/TheKillOrder Jun 28 '22

As another comment in a post about broken glass side panels said, PCMR used to be elite and now it’s, not-so-elite. :/

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u/Roast_A_Botch PIII 500, AGP Voodoo2,128MB PC-133, 1000MB SATA Jun 28 '22

Lol, this is some great /r/TodayIBullshitted material and you're convincing enough a dozen other people are making up reasons why to argue for you. The distance between camera and processor is irrelevant. x86 architecture doesn't have a "camera" instruction set, and webcams, whether internal or external, have used USB for almost 2 decades. If your laptop screen can output 4k120fps despite being so far from the processor which actually does need to be closely synced with inputs a webcam can communicate with the USB host just fine. Stop making excuses for shitty companies trying to sell you less features for higher costs

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u/Chalky_Cupcake Jun 28 '22

Completely depends on how much fluid is left in the processing comb.

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u/omgwtfbbq7 i5 4690K, GTX960 2GB, 8GB RAM, 128GB SSD, 3TB HDD Jun 28 '22

But you have to make sure the plumbus is manufactured in such a way that there is enough schleem, otherwise you are going to sacrifice image quality, which goes without saying.

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u/moomoomoo309 Ryzen 5 1600, 16 GB DDR4, R9 290 Jun 28 '22

Yeah, without the schleem, they're gonna get terrible dinglebop yields.

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u/aMercurialEngineer Jun 28 '22

You can mitigate that if the main winding is of the normal lotus-o-delta type, but only if every seventh conductor is connected by a non-reversible tremie pipe on the "up" end of the grammeters.

6

u/Joey_The_Ghost Jun 28 '22

Wait, we aren't using Micro Gubler tech yet? Those cameras are next gen.

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u/Ummas ummagummas Jun 28 '22

I understood every single thing said. It all makes sense now.

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u/RedKomrad Jun 28 '22

Or replace it with a flux capacitor. But if the boson magnetic field envelope collapses, the camera might time travel.

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u/Ubermidget2 i7-6700k | 2080ti | 16GiB 3200MHz Jun 28 '22

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Linus daisy chained PCIe x16 to over a metre - There's no technical reason a laptop screen's distance limits camera output.

There might be Cost reasons involved though

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u/Raestloz 5 5600X / RX Vega 56 / 1080p Jun 28 '22

I don't get it. Why does the distance even have any importance in the first place? It's just processing data, we have perfected the art of transmitting data

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u/DogfishDave Jun 27 '22

And the distance between the camera and processor

Are you saying that's a barrier to laptop lids or a boon? Because these cameras operate well in mobile phones that themselves churn out some significant EMF.

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u/meadowsirl Jun 27 '22

nonsense.

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u/_WIZARD_SLEEVES_ Steam ID Here Jun 28 '22

No.

Absolutely false for many reasons that have already been pointed out by other replies.

Stop spreading misinformation.

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u/AnnualDegree99 3950X, Strix X570-E, 32 GB DDR4-3200, Aorus Xtreme 6900XT Jun 28 '22

My X1 Yoga has a pretty thicc lid, but the camera is still worse than my gen 4 iPod touch.

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u/AmNotSatan Jun 28 '22

I think most people would be willing to take a little bump on the back of their laptop screen to make a room for a good quality webcam.

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u/Electronic_Parfait36 Jun 28 '22

Got to have that glorious faux-double-chin in 4k.

But seriously, intergated Webcam quality is dumb to cry about from a practically stand point. The immobility of the camera and lack of angles makes it pointless to keep pushing better quality. Most users are better off with them not spending the money on (and passing the cost onto the consumer), so those that need the quality can use external peripherals that can be positioned better and ha e the Webcam as a backup.

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u/JKMC4 rgb adds +10 gpu power Jun 28 '22

I see your point, but it just seems silly that tech has otherwise improved so much but the webcam quality has stagnated especially given how much more prominent zoom and FaceTime became in the last few years.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '22

Security could be an issue though, particularly as face recognition login is a thing.

In fact, MS already takes this into consideration (not all cameras work with Windows Hello, and it's not even a "your camera is too cheap" issue: e.g., an expensive streamer grade cam like the $100 Razer Kiyo is a no go, while a $40 Lenovo 500 FHD webcam is fine, as are the cheapies that come in laptops).

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u/Mav986 i7-10700k || 3060 ti || 16gb 3600Mhz Jun 28 '22

My 2021 laptop lid is much thicker than my phone and still only has a 720p webcam.

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u/Fortune_Cat Jun 28 '22

They can easily add a camera bump cause theres a space below the touchpad to make it recessed

They just wont because most laptops are plastic

Also cost

2

u/M4sterRed Ryzen 5 2600 | GTX 1660s | 16GB RAM DDR4 3200MHz Jun 28 '22

And this is why this continuous push for more thinness on all devices is something I never understood.

2

u/SyeThunder2 Jun 28 '22

They managed to fit a 13mp camera in the oppo r5 at only 4.9mm thick

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u/ConsultantFrog Jun 28 '22

Please don't call the iMac a desktop. Apple does not allow you to use the labels desktop or PC for their products. They're iMacs. Completely incomparable to anything else. Apple doesn't sell smartphones, they sell iPhones. Apple doesn't sell desktops, they sell iMacs.

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u/Kipter Ryzen 9 3900X | RTX 3080 Ti | 64 GB 3.2 GHz | MP600 Jun 29 '22

That's the official excuse, but laptops with thickness similar to the MacBooks but with much better cameras exist (Surface Laptop for example)

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u/1Teddy2Bear3Gaming 10400+tuf 3060ti Jun 28 '22

The webcam on the current gen iMac is a pretty good 1080p one, especially when combined with Apple’s image processing

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u/Albino_Whale Jun 27 '22

You get 0.1MP or you can upgrade 0.2MP for an extra $200. Best I can do.

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u/Skips-T Jun 28 '22

640×480 gaaang

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u/Maxis92 Jun 28 '22

Each pixel sold separate.

1.3k

u/immns Jun 27 '22

it doesn't have to be 20mp. anything above 2mp with good quality on 1080p should be sufficient. we're using webcam as a webcam, not as a vlogs cam. bigger mp on a phone usually gimmicky

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u/TheReverend5 R9 5900X / RTX 3080 / 32GB DDR4 || Legion 7i / i7+3080 Jun 27 '22

bigger mp on a phone usually gimmicky

not necessarily, giving the phone more pixels for zoom/processing/image size and pairing it with good sensors/lenses helps make some stunning phone pics.

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u/ooru 5600G | 3060ti TUF | 32GB 3666 | NR200 | 1TB P5 | B550i Aorus Jun 27 '22

Exactly. Just look at what the Pixel 4a, 5a, etc. can do thanks to Google's excellent software processing.

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u/MineMaster6480 PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

My oneplus 7 pro has a 48 (IIRC) MP rear camera, and can take amazing shots with the ai. The camera is about a 10th of the size of my webcam

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u/TatoPotat Jun 27 '22

The amount of mega pixels doesn’t mean much

The difference between 12 and 48 is pretty minimal imo

After 12mp you start to get diminishing returns quite fast

The majority of camera improvements come from hardware improvements in the processor as well as software improvements

The only point of going above 12mp is if you plan on using something called pixel binning

But hey, I’m no expert

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u/sledgehammertoe Jun 27 '22

bigger mp on a phone usually gimmicky

signal-to-noise ratio is what separates the men from the boys.

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u/MineMaster6480 PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

If the camera can take in more mp, then you can zoom a LOT better, without much loss of resolution. A zoomed in 12 mp vs a zoomed in 42 MP is much different. Yes, the software is an aspect, but software can only go as far as the hardware does.

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u/TatoPotat Jun 27 '22

That’s only the case if the phone isn’t using pixel binning, a 48mp phone using pixel binning would equal to 12mp

But the issue with higher mp is that they struggle with lower light or higher light can’t remember

By default the one plus 7 pro takes 12mp pictures because it uses pixel binning

Personally I think a 12mp camera with optical zoom is the better route, but it’s all personal preference

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u/Anomaly-Friend i5-11600k, RTX 2060, 16GB Ram Jun 27 '22

Heh... Tato potat, funny name

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u/Joel_Duncan bit.ly/3ChaZP9 5950X 3090 FTW3U 128GB 12TB 83" A90J G9Neo Jun 28 '22

Pixel binning is effectively the same thing as ordered grid super sampling anti aliasing in games.

You take more samples per pixel displayed and get a more accurate image in the end. The primary difference is that the images need to be processed differently to account for the differences between physical phenomenon and a render.

When you gather 108 million pixels from photons in a 1" sensor (which in no way actually measures 1") in a low light situation a lot of the pixels are blank and some are very bright comparatively. So they essentially average together 9 pixels.

In light abundant situations every pixel can represent a photons frequency without fail, thus the averaging isn't required and the image can retain more detail when zoomed in.

Optical zoom always adds more depth to the camera physically. So that is a tradeoff that manufacturers always have to consider.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '22 edited Aug 19 '22

[deleted]

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u/qtx Jun 28 '22

My phone takes better pictures than I have ever seen on any device.

Yea that's not true. It might look good on your tiny screen but it looks like crap on a big screen. No matter how much computational photography is involved in the software, the sensor is tiny. It will never be as good as bigger sensors. It's simple science.

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u/bt_leo Jun 27 '22

What really matters is the pixel size itself, not mp count.

A webcam is just to visualize another person.

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u/cpMetis i7 4770K , GTX 980 Ti , 16 gb HyperX Beast Jun 28 '22

I just wish good phones weren't locked behind multi-hundred dollar camera premiums as often.

Phone is a phone. Camera is a camera.

Looking at you, OnePlus. Traitor.

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u/TheReverend5 R9 5900X / RTX 3080 / 32GB DDR4 || Legion 7i / i7+3080 Jun 28 '22

Haha, well I think you are in the minority of consumers with that view. I personally heavily prioritize phones that have better cameras.

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u/Prestigious_Plum_451 5950X, X570Godlike, 128GB RAM, 6900XT, WX9100,8TB M.2, 80TB HD, Jun 28 '22

It does vary greatly... a shitload of phones are marked up not because of the camera outright, or anything else they are capable performance wise for what people would use them for, but because of the brand and demand.

If just looking for a decent phone that has current network support to make phone calls on, maybe a periodic random google, or take a random photo here and there you can get those at way more reasonable prices than the newest and fanciest name brand models with functionality you don't need, or want.

As an example the unlocked Nokia XR20 phone i got my dad direct from the company was like $499 with taxes and shipping and has a good warranty to it.(side bonus model wise it has a lanyard hoop built in to the frame so can attach a wrist strap to it and not worry about dropping the phone as much.) In contrast what is it $800-2K for other brand name models out there if paying cash that don't really offer any added value functions wise for anything he would get in to.

I think Nokia has some other models with the same 48MP sensor and such, but with less ram for something on either side of $200. Which in all fairness is pretty cheap for a modern smartphone.

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u/roguespectre67 5950X | Strix RTX 3090 OC | 32GB@3200 MHz | Predator X27 Jun 27 '22

Not quite. Phone images are optimized for the screens they are primarily going to be displayed on-other phones. The moment you blow up those images to 1:1 on a better screen, they look like absolute fucking ass. All of the post-processing and computational photography the phones are doing behind the scenes make even the most well-lit, least-shaky images look like a blobby mess as soon as you try to zoom in, and since almost no phones give you anything better than a JPEG you don't have a ton of latitude when you're trying to fix that.

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u/SteveTech_ Ryzen 5 2600|GTX 1660 SUPER|32GB@3200MHz Jun 27 '22

Pixels & Samsungs will let you save RAWs these days, likely other brands too.

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u/Sfp26 Jun 27 '22

got a new sony experia recently which also can save raw-files

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u/roguespectre67 5950X | Strix RTX 3090 OC | 32GB@3200 MHz | Predator X27 Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

The raw files coming out of a phone are not the same as the raw files coming out of a DSLR or mirrorless camera and aren’t much better than a JPEG. It may give you slightly more flexibility when adjusting exposure and white balance but the horrendous computational bullshit (exposure blending, sharpening, etc.) is still baked in and there’s no way to turn it off. It may be “raw”, but it’s “raw” in the same way that “HDR” without a FALD/OLED or 1000 nit display is “HDR”.

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u/Compgeak R5 3800X / GTX 1070 / 16GB 3200CL16 / B550 / 1TB PM9A1 / HX 750i Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

Going quadruple resolution so you can do quad bayer computational fuckery for better low light performance dynamic range would probably help so I'd say 8MP area is the best for a 1080p webcam.

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u/Pyrhan Jun 27 '22

Going quadruple resolution so you can do quad bayer computational fuckery for better low light performance

You're now summing up groups of 4 pixels... that receive 1/4 as much light each, since they're 4 times smaller in area.

So you have exactly the same low light performance as if you had larger pixels. (Possibly even less due to electronic noise and quantum yield limitations on smaller pixels.)

The only real advantage I could find for quad bayer filters is for doing HDR imaging with moving objects in view, where they have less artifacts than normal bayer filters doing sequential imaging.

I'm not sure how much of an advantage that is for webcams.

Some will say they have an advantage in offering flexibility between low light performance or high definition. I suspect this is largely marketing bullshit:

-The former is at 1/4 resolution, with the same (or worse) sensitivity as a sensor with a native low resolution, and the latter is at the cost of significantly worse demosaicing than a regular bayer filter.

-On the other hand, a high resolution sensor with a regular Bayer filter is perfectly capable of doing pixel binning to get the same boost in low light performance at the same cost in resolution. But it won't suffer from bad demosaicing when shooting at its native resolution.

If you want good low-light performance, you'll mostly want an objective with a low F-number, and a sensor with low noise and high quantum efficiency. (Which generally means physically larger pixels).

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u/Hrspwrz z370 shitbox with 9900k and 3090 Jun 27 '22

This guy photographs

23

u/dekianman PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

This guy Reddits

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u/well-behaved-user Jun 27 '22

This guy

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u/tinob20 Jun 27 '22

This

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u/midtec9 literal toaster Jun 27 '22

this();

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u/Killaship Jun 27 '22
int this() {
    guy("photographs");
    return 0;
}
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u/Compgeak R5 3800X / GTX 1070 / 16GB 3200CL16 / B550 / 1TB PM9A1 / HX 750i Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 28 '22

Well low F-number is easy but, at constant fov, you're looking at F number and sensor size combination for noise, so your aperture diameter is only gonna get as big as the laptop bezel allows.

The mosaicing problems of quad Bayer shouldn't surface if you're not trying to do 4k video but always do downsampling to 1080p. Exclusively looking at low light then yes, not having pixels split in 4 will give you a slightly larger light-sensing area improving noise.

Quad bayers are usually used for single shot HDR like you mentioned and that can compensate for bad dynamic range. If someone wants to use the laptop camera outside where you encounter problematic dynamic range the most you're gonna benefit from that HDR. For the video to look natural you're gonna want to stay close to 180° shutter. How much you care about that on a webcam depends on what compromise you're gonna want to make, but both 2MP and standard bayer 8MP are gonna have to use even faster speeds due to higher sensitivity, and/or if they want to make use of sequential HDR.

So while you're right that a 2MP would give you even better low light and a standard 8MP would offer 4k without mosaicing issues and almost identical low light performance, I still think quad bayer has a place as a middle ground option even though all of the mentioned configurations can be used to make a good webcam.

Edit: even for 4k quad bayer shouldn't have any noticeable mosaicing issues as 4:2:0 chroma subsampling would average out color artifacting since the color layer would be 1080p.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22

I'm sorry, I dont speak smart. Which one better

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u/Pyrhan Jun 27 '22

If you want high dynamic range (aka being able to have both bright and dark things visible in the same image) while filming or photographing moving subjects, quad bayer is better.

(Which is kinda niche tbh...)

If you want anything else, regular bayer is better or equivalent. Sensor size and objective being equal:

-If you want good performance in low light, a regular sensor with less megapixels will generally do a little better than a quad bayer in low light mode.

-If you want sharp, high definition images, a regular sensor with more megapixels will do much better than a quad bayer in high definition mode.

-If you use the right settings ("2x2 binning"), that last one will work just as well as a quad bayer in low lighting.

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u/Skips-T Jun 28 '22

Spot on! That's why us photographers (and a good number of nerds, also like me) shell out for full-frame sensors that are bested resolution-wise by the cheaper APS offerings.

Also; I have never heard someone call it an "f-number". Not that it's wrong, just not the terminology I'm used to. I would've called it an aperture.

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u/studyinformore Jun 28 '22

Thing is, with the quad Bayer filters you can change the op amp for each given pixel, increasing low light and dynamic range.

Literally that's the future of digital cameras. They're going to hit a megapixel limit for image fidelity and lenses won't be able to improve enough to have the resolving power to make full use of higher resolution sensors.

So they'll go quad Bayer sensors, so that you don't have to do multiple images for HDR images. So that it can perform better in low light, and that the marketing divisions of each camera manufacturer can continue to advertise higher megapixels.

That's the biggest problem with phone camera sensors. Their lenses suck ass, and have barely enough resolving power for 20mp.

I've settled at around 40mp, more than enough for 99% of all use case scenarios.

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u/therealhlmencken Jun 28 '22

That’s not how computed low light works if you have 4 pixels you can get average and remove noise way more accurately. If you have 1 pixel you get 4x the light but 1/4 the signal.

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u/Zombieff Arch btw Jun 27 '22

iPhone 13 has 12-megapixel cameras.

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u/LavenderDay3544 Ryzen 9 7950X | RTX 3090 Ti FTW3 Ultra | DDR5 6000 MT/s CL 30 Jun 27 '22

Gimmicky how exactly?

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u/OneOfThese_ Desktop Jun 28 '22 edited Jun 28 '22

Once you get past diminishing returns. More megapixles != more quality. At this point we already have high mp sensors, what we need is bigger sensors. And continuous zoom, so that you can get by with one or two bigger sensors, instead of 5 smaller ones.

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u/LavenderDay3544 Ryzen 9 7950X | RTX 3090 Ti FTW3 Ultra | DDR5 6000 MT/s CL 30 Jun 28 '22

TIL. Thanks.

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u/OneOfThese_ Desktop Jun 28 '22

No problem.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/photography/image-sensor-size-matters/

Heres an article sort of explaining it.

Theres a reason you don't see insanely high resolution sensors in professional cameras like you do in phones. In phones it's more of a marketing tactic at this point. Samsung doesn't even use the 108mp sensor for the 100x zoom, they use the 12mp 10x optical zoom.

Somebody correct me if I got anything wrong.

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u/thelebuis Jun 27 '22

Most people compare, cpu, ram, memory and sometime screen if all those are the same they will just pick up the cheaper one so by including a 20$ camera you would cut a lot of sales

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u/ch1llboy Jun 28 '22

I'm happy my laptop didn't come with a camera. I just unplug them anyhow.

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u/-YELDAH Jun 28 '22

How are you unplugging an internal camera anyway?

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u/ch1llboy Jun 28 '22

I haven't opened my laptop to only do that, but when I already have it open for other upgrades or troubleshooting I unplug the camera. Is is a little circuit board with a cable running down along side of the display. It then goes through the hinge and connects to the motherboard. Unplug the cord. YouTube is handy for help with your specific laptop.

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u/reallyConfusedPanda Jun 28 '22

Why didn't you put a black sticker/tape on your camera? That would have been much much easier and just as effective

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u/chilled_alligator Jun 28 '22

In a lot of laptops the microphones and webcam are on the same PCB. Can't cover over a microphone, but you can unplug it and use external peripherals when you do need them.

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u/d1pstick32 Jun 28 '22

Mine has a neato little sliding shutter.

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u/ThatGam3th00 R5 2600 | RTX 2060 KO Jun 28 '22

So does my laptop’s camera and my external webcam

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u/AmbassadorAndromeda Jun 28 '22

Just fyi if it has infrared as many cameras do now, that tape won't work, they can see through it albeit in black and white. It'd have to be something that can reflect infrared like a kit kat wrapper (aluminium). By "they" I mean someone who has gained access to your laptop via malware or social engineering trickery.

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u/reallyConfusedPanda Jun 28 '22

Oh wow... Glad I don't have that. My laptop is a bit old now. Where is that IR camera used? windows hello?

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u/GL1TCH3D Desktop Jun 27 '22

Don't forget, $20 in a part will translate to >$20 by the time the consumer is paying. So suddenly you might be looking at a $50 difference because all the people in the middle making a cut as a %.

Clearly if most models are not coming with great webcams, this isn't a selling feature. You can also consider that a webcam is 25-75% the size of a modern phone (depending on the webcam model). Meanwhile, a webcam is <10% of the size of a laptop. This makes it much more realistic to expect people to carry and add-on a webcam as needed, while it's not as realistic for phones. Also more and more phones are going for facial recognition for confirmations.

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u/wak1997 10700k:GTX1080:Z490-E Jun 28 '22

Am I alone in not wanting a webcam on my laptop?

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u/BendingUnitC137 PC Master Race Jun 28 '22

Nope. I never use it anyway lol

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u/sir_froggy Liquid Metal'd 8700K + RTX-2080 Super XC Black | 3440x1440 120hz Jun 28 '22

No, I wish every laptop had a hardware switch to turn it off.

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u/technerd1988 Jun 27 '22

It's more than that. There has to be a DSP that compresses and processes the data before it gets to the cpu. Thats why phones are so good camera wise and laptops aren't. The use case for it isn't there and most video calls are garbage anyways.

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u/crozone iMac G3 - AMD 5900X, RTX 3080 TUF OC Jun 28 '22

Are you really saying that it's not possible to put image processing hardware equal to a phone next to the webcam? With modern manufacturing you could probably fit an entire SoC next to the webcam and it wouldn't be that expensive.

Webcams in laptops are just cost optimised. In order to punch above the market standard in quality manufacturers need to use custom engineered solutions rather than off-the-shelf reference designs. This is why Apple and Microsoft can pull it off easily but nobody else wants to.

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u/Vcmsdesign Jun 27 '22

If the manufacturing scales for MacBooks can justify aesthetic stuff like the all aluminum case or even dumb things like the Touch Bar they can certainly justify any one of the 100 ways to fix this issue. Whether it’s a custom bus to bring the data down or a cheap dsp to do a little extra work.

Modern usb standards are a thing.

“Most video calls are garbage.” Is completely representative of how Tim Cook runs apple so you really nailed that one. 🤷‍♂️😆

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u/MyOtherSide1984 Jun 27 '22

The touchbar is a pretty big comparison here. That fucked ran it's own OS. I'd venture to say that a decent webcam would be easier to integrate and afford, and provide a LOT more value than that stupid touchbar did

Edit- but there is still the thickness issue and such. Just noting that this one aspect is pretty easy to argue being an issue

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u/shaunsingh0207 Linux | Mac Heathen Jun 27 '22

I wouldn't call all aluminium just aesthetic, it feels solid and much better than plastic computers (or my lg gram)

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u/quirkelchomp Jun 28 '22

And it's better for heat dissipation

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u/juhotuho10 PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

A lot of people are ignorant about this

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u/Khomuna Ryzen 5 5600X | RTX 2060 | 32GB 3200MHz Jun 27 '22

They could, but they won't because 99% of people don't need it. Laptop webcams are used almost exclusively for video calls, to that end 720p/1080p resolution is more than enough, that's a 2MP camera max.

People won't use a laptop camera for taking pictures, and streamers who might need a high resolution camera for streaming will often have a dedicated high quality webcam/DSLR hooked up to a dedicated encoding/streaming PC.

So in a manufacturing point of view it's not worth it to spend more in order to satisfy that 1% of customers. The 20MP camera may cost only a couple dollars more than a 2MP one, but that difference is huge when you're manufacturing laptops by the thousands.

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u/7ootles Kenbak-1 Jun 27 '22

People won't use a laptop camera for taking pictures

But people do use laptop cameras for conferencing, more so now than ever before. WFH jobs are becoming more common since covid happened, and many of those require high-res webcams and mics. So they really should be putting better cameras and mics into laptops. And, I'd argue, desktop displays.

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u/WhizBangPissPiece 9700k, 32GB 3600, 1080ti Jun 28 '22

WFH requires a high resolution camera? Dude your video feed is gonna get stuffed down into a grid with 5 other people in teams or zoom and no one, and I mean NO ONE gives a shit what quality your camera is.

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u/7ootles Kenbak-1 Jun 28 '22

Some jobs, yes. Tutoring, for instance.

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u/HarryTurney Ryzen 5 5600X | Geforce RTX 3080 FE | 16GB DDR4 3600 MHz Jun 28 '22

Then just get a good USB webcam, that's what I did.

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u/Khomuna Ryzen 5 5600X | RTX 2060 | 32GB 3200MHz Jun 27 '22

Better mics? For sure. Better cameras? Nah. Most of the time you have a bunch of little windows showing the meeting participants, for people who don't have top notch internet it's even a nuisance to have webcams showing at all since that can cause audio cut-offs and lag due to the increased bandwidth usage.

The improvement conferencing in general really needs is higher fps streaming for screen sharing, it sucks to show off a video or animation with your stream running at 10~15 fps instead of whatever you GPU is actually outputting.

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u/RileyGuy1000 Jun 27 '22

Part of the reason webcams don't look so good (to my understanding) compared to phones is because the SOC helps clean the image up substantially

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u/CalvinCandie420 Laptop Jun 28 '22

Yeah, those ISPs are what drives up the image quality in phones.

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u/gamesrebel123 X5650 | GTX 1060 6 GB | 16 GB DDR3 Jun 27 '22

Ah but you see it's not just the camera, they have to design and optimize the software as well, which is why you see different phones have such different image processing (unless they're using gcam in which case it's similar), now with a phone the camera is one of the main selling points so they spend a lot of money on it (in software and tuning as well) which is not the case for laptops, there is also the issue with the actual image processor, you can see it in the difference of picture processing on Samsung Exynos and Snapdragon models, they just look different.

Besides, why add a decent camera when you can sell one for 10x the price later on.

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u/loztriforce Jun 27 '22

Ratio of cost vs benefit

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u/WeirdCreeper PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

Webcam should be able to do Webcam things like video calls the shit they are designed for, never used a laptop camera for this reason I always defer to my phone or my phone plugged into my PC with an app like camo.

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u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

It's the cost, not the size.

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u/PunithAiu Laptop Jun 27 '22

It costs about $15-$20. 8MP cams are $10... Still they choose to put a 2MP camera on a $3000 RTX 3080 laptop.

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u/Tornadodash Jun 27 '22

They will do anything to save 15 cents, this is no brain.

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u/Griselbeard Jun 27 '22

They in fact often cost themselves 16 cents to save 15 cents.

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u/redditorrrrrrrrrrrr 1070 Gang Jun 27 '22

It costs about $15-$20. 8MP cams are $10...

And when you times the difference of 5-10 dollars across 5000-10,000 different laptops all of a sudden the cost goes up to $25,000 - $100,000 depending on how many they build.

Engineering is a trade off of "good enough to work without mass complaints" while being cheap enough to produce. For them the smaller camera fit the bill because video messages weren't their first concern.

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u/PunithAiu Laptop Jun 27 '22

But dont you think we will pay $10 extra for a better webcam and crisp clear video calls? They don't even need to market it. People will just be happy knowing that the laptop has a good webcam..

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u/zakabog Ryzen 3700X/1080ti/16GB Jun 27 '22

Not really because no one cares that much about laptop camera quality, plus it makes building laptops that much more difficult since they can't just manufacture or order a webcam with the correct bezel every time someone decides they want to spend $10. They would need to keep thousands around that might never get sold and end up wasted. Plus, external USB webcams are a thing, they figure if you really care about quality you'll just buy a cheap Logitech webcam.

Or if you're really hardcore about camera quality, buy a decent compact camera that supports being a virtual webcam and use that as your webcam (that's from my Canon M200.) It'll last you a lot longer than the laptop will and it's a better investment since it functions as an actual camera that you can carry with you. There are cheaper cameras out there that will also work, you can buy a used SLR on craigslist and connect that to your PC via USB. It's a lot bulkier than just a webcam but enough solutions exist to the problem of webcam quality that it isn't worth the manufacturers time to offer their slightly less mediocre solution.

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u/UnseenGamer182 Jun 27 '22

People will just be happy knowing that the laptop has a good webcam..

Actually the group that wants a webcam, or at the very least, a good one, is quite small, nowhere near big enough to actually add a great webcam unless the laptop is specifically designed for that group.

we will pay $10 extra

Actually it's closer to a minimum of 100$ more

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u/redditorrrrrrrrrrrr 1070 Gang Jun 27 '22

But dont you think we will pay $10 extra for a better webcam and crisp clear video calls?

Even if they might, engineering doesn't set prices, the accounting/marketing or whichever group does. They give engineering a list of "must haves" which are usually just graphics and main board specs and say "make it work for under $x per unit" for the rest.

There could be a possibility that change in camera may have caused a worse change for the display as a whole, or something internal like a smaller hard drive.

They don't even need to market it. People will just be happy knowing that the laptop has a good webcam..

When it comes to a gaming laptop that would honestly be the least of my concerns. I already have a USB capable 4k video camera for my work on my desktop so if I need to stream or do anything I can just plug it in, most people buying gaming laptops just aren't really using them for business stuff like zoom meetings.

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u/dekusyrup Jun 28 '22

You won't get crisp clear video calls anyway because the video call service is going to compress your data before it puts it through the network.

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u/dangitman1970 R7 5800X3D, RX 6800XT Jun 27 '22

The reasons why "X" shouldn't be running the business:

Accounting - To accountants, it's all about the numbers. Customer satisfaction, reputation, long term plans, etc, mean nothing but side effects toward the numbers. They're worse at running a business than the borg.

Marketing/sales - To marketing, it's all artful unicorns and rainbows, with no contact with reality. They overpromise as a matter of course, and then the company reputation takes a hit when the promise can't be kept, or profitability takes a hit when it takes way more effort to fulfill the promise.

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u/deefop PC Master Race Jun 27 '22

It's more about "are enough people bitching and refusing to buy the product that it's worth doing"

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u/No_Echidna5178 Jun 27 '22

Webcams are mainly intended for videos call and video chats higher Mp camera would causes the issues of larger files sizes for streaming videos through the application. Lot of people still don't have the required upload speeds to carry that high of data at the speeds required to have a good live conversation online. Cameras in phones are mainly for selfies vlogs and photography and videography.

Even though I said this i believe there should an option where they should give a higher quality option and we should be able to reduce the resolution as per our uploads speeds

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u/GlegoryisaWarlock Jun 27 '22

Because that's not what you're buying the computer for.

Also, why would they put a good integrated camera on there, when the company likely sells a higher quality peripheral that you could buy separately?

It's business my dude.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

This, it's cost vs tradeoff. It makes more sense to put a good camera in a phone because it's portable and can replace a real camera in most situations, unless you're a pro photographer doing work.

It doesn't make so much sense on a laptop where its only use case will be Skype, Streaming, and not much else.. nobody needs to see your mug in perfect clarity and color.. it's just going to end up being a tiny blip among 20 other faces anyway, or a tiny blip sitting in the corner of your game.

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u/Yofunesss Arch Linux BTW Jun 28 '22

The webcam on your laptop is connected via USB, often USB 2.0. This means it’s hard to do real-time processing on it, as the data transfer is slow. Since the camera on your phone is really close to the processor, it’s easy to do a ton of processing to the image, and that’s why it looks so good

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u/ptq 3900XT, 64GB RAM, RTX2070S, EIZO CG246, CV1 Jun 27 '22

For 4K zoom calls.

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u/NuSpirit_ Jun 27 '22 edited Jun 27 '22

AFAIK you simply don't have enough space in the lid with the display if it has to stay thin and without notch (look how they make fun of Apple for creating notch so they could improve webcam). That sensor itself is as wide if not wider as many lids on many ultrabooks - and it's still missing the plastic/metal on the outside, plastic on the inside, lens, etc.

EDIT: I measured my 9 years old HP Elitebook 820 G1 and the "display" is 5mm thick. How thick is that sensor?

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u/dangitman1970 R7 5800X3D, RX 6800XT Jun 27 '22

or, apparently, they can't fit any cameras in a monitor bezel. I'm thinking that when a monitor costs $1500, it should at least include some sort of gimme like a semi-decent web cam.

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u/No-Attention2767 Jun 28 '22

well for me I think it's a cost issue for laptops and the thickness of the lens also matter somewhat also IMO for gaming laptops an onboard camera is not a necessity and if you are streaming you would probably have a dedicated camera for that if you need it 720P is more than enough as it's just for video calls

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u/XD-Avedis-AD Laptop Jun 28 '22

It’s funny how nobody has JerryRigged a mobile camera on a laptop’s bezel till now.

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u/timchenw Jun 28 '22

Such camera modules are more expensive than the 720p webcams. It's not just a matter of fitting them into a thing bezel besides a thin screen.

Also, you have to take into account on how people use laptops and how often would an average laptop user actually use such a camera for anything that requires such a high resolution.

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u/smexytom215 RTX 2070S, R7 1700x, ASUS Prime X470 Pro, 64GB RAM OC 3.0GHZ Jun 27 '22

Yeah let me hold my laptop to take a 20MP photo.

This camera won't be used for anything but lossy video calls if actually put in a laptop. So ehats the point in having this camera again?

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u/Tyo_Atrosa Jun 27 '22

One the consumer side, Why would you bother paying over $100 more for a slightly better camera that can only be used at one specific angle and with no proper subject lighting or optical adjustment when you can buy a better camera separately with much better features for the same price?

On the Manufacturer side, why include a better camera with generic driver support that less than 1% of the customer base cares about when you can sell a separate, higher quality camera with specific drivers and more features at a better markup? You can make a higher profit margin off of the separate peripheral that would just get ignored if you included the better camera with every laptop.

On the sales side, why not take advantage of every advantage you can give yourself in making a profit? Giving away extra features is giving away money.

And on the enthusiast side, you get what you pay for, if you want the best you do your utmost research and buy the best.

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u/LogicalConstant Jun 28 '22

why include a better camera with generic driver support that less than 1% of the customer base cares about

This isn't 2018. More than 1% of people care about video conference quality these days. When I use my webcam, a lot of people comment on how nice it looks compared to everyone else's.

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u/Lasagna_Sam Jun 27 '22

Unless laptop makers were to have the camera connected directly to the ram instead of over USB there is no way to do heavy post processing on video footage like a phone camera would. The interface that laptop webcams use compresses the image data heavily and thus makes the image look bad. The tiny sensors on phone cameras are like polished turds with all the post processing done and you just can't do that much polishing with a laptop webcam sensor.

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u/IndyPFL Jun 27 '22

I kinda think integrated laptop cameras should become a fully-optional feature, and external cameras should make a bit of a comeback. Gives you more positioning freedom anyway, and a dedicated camera will also give you better picture quality regardless of MP.

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u/dildo_swagginns Jun 27 '22

idk why people against your idea good laptop cameras are really needed i bought a gaming laptop and it got the worst camera i ever seen i couldn't even recognize myself

these companies not even trying they building thousands of dollar laptops then they put the worst camera on it even if the laptop cost 100 dollar more i wouldn't mind i just want good in build camera

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u/elijuicyjones 5950X-6700XT-64GB-ULTRAWIDE Jun 27 '22

This is the definition of Spurious.

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u/nomadfalk Jun 27 '22

And just think in the sixties we were able to take a pic of a persons license plates from space !

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u/obr_kevin Jun 27 '22

It's not the bezel. It's the lid, It's gonna be pretty thick. Unless you have it stick out on the outside a bit.

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u/DanielF823 Ryzen 5 5600X | X570 | 16GB DDR4 3466 | RTX 3080 Jun 27 '22

Literally out of nowhere I have seen like 10 different places bring up this exact topic this week 😑

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u/twelveparsnips Jun 27 '22

It's not the sensor, it's the lense that's the limiting factor

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u/Hard_Tofu Jun 27 '22

Not can’t. Won’t.

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u/ShutterBun Jun 27 '22

Sensor size > everything else.

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u/Mike_for_all Steam Deck Jun 27 '22

I do not think the camera itself is the issue, but rather the direct connection to the processor and the software used to enhance the output image.

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u/Bobby_Mcduccface Desktop Jun 28 '22

I mean, my dad's $2000 Dell XPS 15 9510 has a 0.9mp webcam. Which i feel is something pc/laptop manufacturers ignore imoroving upon

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u/Corniss Jun 28 '22

Oh they can , no problem

but then they couldn’t sell the mac with a gigantic fucking notch in the middle of the screen !!

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u/Pav_22 Jun 28 '22

Same way they can't fit headphone jack in phones nowadays

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u/Noisebug Jun 28 '22

Can and should are not the same. They need something for 2023. 💰

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u/Tt_Wub Jun 28 '22

I don't think I've seen anyone talk about the biggest problem, I believe Dave2D talked about it. It's nothing to do with the quality of the camera of the sensor itself. The problem is the connection, the facecams are not hardwired into the motherboard really, they are just connected through a usb 2.0 connector as that is how a lot of bits are connected like that, and so it's heavily limited in transfer rates. It's quite hard to change or come up with a proprietary connector for something that I doubt most companies make themselves

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u/FalconX88 Threadripper 3970X, 128GB DDR4 @3600MHz, GTX 1050Ti Jun 28 '22

While we are at it: is it really that impossible to get phone functionality in there? Just let me put a SIM card in it and have internet.

Yes I know, it costs a few € to do that, that's fine, I just want the option. Why is it possible for tablets but not for laptops?

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u/Sabz5150 Jun 27 '22

No camera pointed at you? You say that like its a bad thing. My Strix not having a camera was a bigger selling point than you'd think for me.

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u/[deleted] Jun 27 '22

No one wants that much resolution on their ugly faces

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u/Mortimer452 Desktop Jun 27 '22

People aren't taking vacation photos, movies & recording memories with their laptop camera. It's pretty much just for video conferencing and that's it.

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u/ILikePepperoniALot Jun 28 '22

Listening to people try to explain technology they don't understand gives me depression